By Guest Blogger Karen Robinson
You are savvy, successful, confident and at the top of your game. You are used to going out and getting what you want, and your peers see you as a capable leader. So when it comes to seeing a man that you find attractive at work, you wonder to yourself "what's wrong with approaching him first" or better yet, "what's wrong with asking him out? It's just coffee and after all, it is 2010!"
This fundamental fact remains: Men and women are different! In the realm of dating and mating men are born to respond to a challenge. Men who are interested in us will pursue us. Men who find us attractive, initiate. When we take away a man's need to pursue us, in the long run he loses interest. Period.
This is not politically correct, but it is the truth. Sure, if you "just so happen" to have tickets to a hot concert or ball game, the man you are interested in may very well agree to go with you and have a great time, but after awhile, his interest will wane. You have given him no challenge. Going out with you was not his idea, it was yours and ultimately this "masculine energy" of initiating the relationship will backfire. It's not worth it to enjoy the company of a man if the only reason you are out on date is because you asked him and you had great seats to the Yankee's game.
Have you ever observed a relationship where the man just seems to be "going along" taking up space and marking time? I have seen this and it's not pretty. In these scenarios usually the woman initiated the relationship and always seems to be wanting more with the man being the reluctantly agreeable party, just floating along, not giving or investing a whole lot, just there. What typically happens is the woman is always insecure of his love and desire for her, and the man feeling pressed breaks up with her. I've seen these men "float along" with these women for years claiming that they are not ready to get married, it's not a good time, etc. I have seen these men break up only to get married a short time later to the woman who he pursued and who provided him a challenge.
The 2nd Rule of the Dating Game is "We don't talk to men first, ask them out, or ask them to Dance, etc." The principle behind this rule is that the man must initiate. I hear what you're saying. You're saying to yourself, " Well, he's just shy" or you may think to yourself "I have to let him know that I am interested." "
I will concede that it is good form to have an "approachable vibe" *going on. No man is going to risk approaching you (no matter how physically attractive you are) if your countenance is sad, gloomy or angry. Remember, to keep it light and breezy! However, the most "shy" man, will risk asking you out IF HE IS INTERESTED.
Let me dispel one myth right now. There is no such thing as a "shy" man. Socially awkward? Perhaps. Shy? No way. In the mythical sense, men slay dragons. If he is too awkward to risk asking you out, he may not be the Alpha Male that you want and need to provide for and protect you. Don't waste a lot of time thinking about why the cute guy in accounting or at the neighborhood Starbuck's hasn't asked you out yet. He may be involved with someone or not interested in women. Whatever the reason may be if he has not asked you out, he isn't interested and keep it moving. He won't get a chance to get to know such a wonderful, talented, woman - You!!
Karen Robinson is a certified Rules Dating Coach in the Detroit, Michigan area; for more information about her and her services click here.
*This assumes that you are in a safe community where being seen as approachable is not going to put your physical safety at risk.
18 comments:
Totally agree Zabeth, let them work for you!
Hi Karen, Zabeth and all!
There's no such thing as a shy man? Isn't shyness just a low level form of social anxiety? I have met in real life, and read many stories of guys so crippled by their shyness/anxiety that they have let the woman they were virtually obsessing over get away - and then punished themselves for it afterward. I do agree that that may be a sign that the guy is not an alpha male, but isn't that ok too?
I didn't read Pat Allen's later book, but I did read Getting To I Do. Here are a few snippets before I ask my questions:
"In these days of sensitive men and powerful women, not all men want to be the "male" and carry the responsibility of caring for others, nor do all women want to give up their independent rights and be "female". That is fine. We are all born with our physical capabilities, our mental intelligence, and temperament. We have the freedom and ability to choose whether we want to be the masculine or feminine energy, and while hormones, brain differences, language patterns, and styles may direct us toward certain choices, we must finally be guided by what feels most natural to us."
"Feminine men are not repressed homosexuals or pathological, weird, wimpy, or weak."
"But whatever his profession, the feminine-energy man will basically be a sensitive man who can offer sensuality and sexuality to a strong woman who will back up his career with her brains. In a world where men should be men, and women should be women, these alternative lifestyle couples need to read and hear that they are normal and healthy."
I brought this up here (and not the earlier review thread) because if you are a masculine woman, she actually advocates that you are the first to speak, and the first to invite - which would violate the two rules.
I didn't read Stanger's book, but I did watch most seasons of Millionaire Matchmaker. I paid particular attention to all the women who exhibited masculine energy, and every time she asked them to choose they emphatically stressed wanting to be the female energy. Every time.
So I understand that many women, possibly the vast majority of women, want to become more feminine. And I understand especially that many bw should be informed about the benefits of it, since it seems to be constantly attacked/questioned. But for people who would prefer to be the masculine energy, is there any advice for them? What would they focus on? How should they dress? Do you approach the man, or wait for him to approach, but then speak in a more direct manner, so he realizes you aren't fem energy? Maybe masculine energy women need better help vetting for the right guys? That way, they end up with genuine, loving female energy men and not men who use, or are apathetic until they become bored (like the example in the post).
I appreciate the advice for enhancing femininity, and I pass it along when I can, but I wonder if there are strategic tips for those who want, as Pat says, that alternate lifestyle? And who better to ask than dating coaches. :)
@Anon 1:04 good questions. Based on what I remember from “Getting To I Do” if you’re comfortable being the more assertive masculine energy in the relationship than it is okay to approach the man first. Moreover, feminine energy men will be drawn and attracted to your energy- that’s how you’ll know.
However the key difference is you can’t change it up later. If you start the relationship as the masculine energy you can’t change to the feminine energy later. That’s where a lot of the masculine energy women on Millionaire Matchmaker go wrong- they start as the masculine aggressor and then want to the feminine girl later. If you start out as the pursuer you will always be the pursuer in the relationship.
I think most discussion is geared toward the more passive feminine energy role here because that applies to the majority of women.
I agree absolutely. No matter how "shy" a man is if he really likes the woman, he'll find a way to gather up all his courage and ask her out.
Wonder what you think of "The Bodyguard" where Whitney Houston's character asked out and pursued Kevin Costner's character. Although fictional, this happens way too often.
@anonymous,
It is my observation that women who start out as initiators in their relationships with men ultimately tire of this role. Mostly, I have seen these men demonstrate an overall ambivalence about the relationship. Taking up space, marking time, getting their needs met without having to give too much. I don't label them as selfish or users because the women involved accepted the initial rules of engagement although they (the women) are ultimately dissatisfied.
You said..."I paid particular attention to all the women who exhibited masculine energy, and every time she asked them to choose they emphatically stressed wanting to be the female energy. Every time.
This statement is profound in that although these women demonstrated masculine energy, they ultimately desired to be feminine. You said EVERY TIME!!! That is KEY!!!
I believe it is innate that men want to pursue and women want to BE pursued.
Could it be that the masculine energy vibe is in play because these women would rather pursue a man rather than the alternative of being alone for a period of time? Because if, as you say, EVERY TIME they revert to the feminine energy position, there is something else going on.
Very good post. Even married women need to keep up the challenge factor, right?
I don't know if I agree with the myth of the shy male. Perhaps he's not "naturally" shy, but maybe the culture has push him into a corner, as in the way it has created aggressive females?
@ Jamdown
I have never watched "The Bodyguard" with Whitney. She asked him out? How did that turn out for her character?
One of my favorite movies was the film "Something New." I liked how he continued to pursue her even though the AA female character was uncomfortable with their perceived differences and her concern for what her family, etc would think. I liked that in the end he attended the ball with her in a totally ridiculous borrowed "suit." LOL
The statement "people are inspired to do remarkable things to find and be with the one they love" is true. This was written by Greg Behrendt author of "He's Just Not That Into You." A must read!!
Thanks for your response Zabeth!... and fixing the technical glitch I think I had.
You're right, you can't switch it up midstream which makes it particularly tough for me. I did the test and came out right in the middle. So now I am really trying to figure out which avenue to pursue. Maybe like the shy guys, if I want to be the masculine energy, I just need to take a deep breath and go for it. :)
And Jamdown that movie was so odd! I remember watching it thinking is this supposed to be a love story? It actually seems to almost mirror the example above. I couldn't tell if Kevin was just acting badly, his heart really wasn't into it, or they just had little to no chemistry. I haven't seen it in years, wonder if my opinion would change if I saw it now.
@Hope, yes married women do need to keep up the challenge factor.
Greetings, Karen! I "surfed" on over here via CW's site! Ay ay ay...where can I begin here? LOL
Hmmm...I guess I have to agree with you...and with Anon....both of you make EXTREMELY valid points.
I was a situation where someone indicated interest, I reciprocated....he did something totally off the wall, blamed it on his consumption at "happy hour" and wanted to be my friend again.
However, after having dinner with him, I learned a bit more about him (excessive alcohol consumption along with drugs, not to mention his rather nasty attitude toward his friends who were getting married soon -- he basically "ragged" on his friend's choices of ladies)....my "fire" was doused sufficiently!
I decided to give him a "second chance"....and invited him to a gathering of friends to hear a classic rock band. According to what I've read here, that may have been a mistake....because he's "blowing me off" now.... *sigh*
Although I still think he's as cute as the ears on a speckled pup....I'm really inclined to stay away now.
Sometimes, I feel like we can't win for losing...
Hi Zabeth,
I don't believe that attraction always equals "I want to date that person". Or "I have to approach her or him". Sometimes it's just that, that person caught your eye and that's it. I have those moments everyday, somes when I'm walking down the street, I'll see a hot guy and just admire him and I keep on moving. There are some guys at my gym that I think are attractive but I'm not necessarily interested in dating them. Sometimes it's like window shopping, sometimes you just want to or have to look.
@Dios, stay away!
Zabeth:
My instincts (and throughout my life...they've RARELY been wrong) are screaming for me to STAY AWAY!!! So, I'm listening....
:)
Thanx!
Interesting comments everyone!
Thank you so much for replying Karen!! I think you could be right. I did have a few questions/comments about some of the things you said - hope it's ok!
**Taking up space, marking time, getting their needs met without having to give too much. I don't label them as selfish or users because the women involved accepted the initial rules of engagement...**
That sounds to me to be the epitome of selfish. I would say that is selfish if a woman were doing it. Did the women you know actually sign up for this? I thought the trade off was just like in a traditional relationship, only with the genders swapped. So the woman brings the prestige, the resources, the gifts, and the guys reciprocate by showing appreciation, love, and bringing the fun. No one should be marking off time on a calendar on someone's dime w/o giving. These men should be giving a lot! But they give in gratitude, in thanks, in cards, in love, in appreciation and openness to whatever she wants. And if he is just not interested, he should decline outright, just like a woman should decline outright if she is not really into the relationship, right?
I liked your possible reasons on why the women were demonstrating masculine energy. If many of us use masculine energy in our everyday work affairs, then I can see how hard it could be to turn off. Guys have a hard time damping down, feminine gals would have to shift tracks entirely.
That's why I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is something that is true of the majority. But Patti, who rarely minces words, didn't just outright deny the woman the option, she asked. So that makes me think that at some point she's encountered women who didn't fit the mold. Also, in Pat Allen's book, while 75% of it seemed geared towards feminine women, she does devote some time to masculine women; and she did have some examples of those couples happily married.
It's funny you bring up Something New, because I thought of that one when I read the earlier post on The Bodyguard. I actually saw him as a feminine man. Yes, he did show his interest. But when she wasn't interested, he didn't pursue, just seemed to more respond to her interest. While he had a viable profession, she was the one who brought prestige, and money to the relationship. He brought excitement, and fun, and helped her get in touch with her emotional side (like many women do for men). Or would he be considered more in the middle, which Allen thinks is a kiss of death for men and women. But is that true? Can you be both? Can you have your feelings cherished and have your thoughts respected?
But don't worry Zabeth, I'll stick to reading mostly. :) Even as I am responding, and fleshing out my own thoughts on the matter, I am realizing the genuine (genuine as in they truly want to be it and not just feel they have to for whatever reason) masculine women and feminine men are probably even more rare than I think - so I guess it doesn't make sense to talk about them too much.
But thanks again for the responses.
There's a good article on this in the current issue of Women's Health Magazine too:
www.womenshealthmag.com/sex-and-relationships/modern-romance?page=1
Nice place you have here, must read more.
Zabeth:
Thanx for the link to the Women's Health article....very good....and true! (yes, I'm handing in my "Rabid Feminist" card...whatever)
LOL
Even though I'm staying away from that gentleman I mentioned before...I will say that he did do all of the positive things that someone who "courts" a woman does...on the very first evening that I met him....
It caught me off guard, as I'm not used to having a man do that....which is a sad statement about relationships today....
I think "we" have gotten caught up in the so-called sexual revolution...and forgotten how to "court" and "be courted"...
Food for thought...indeed.
I think when women use masculine energy, it could be a cause of modern depression--tho not always--people use to have sense and decorum when dating--guys could ALSO switch their brains from work to home easier than women as well--we dont shut down the masculine energy we use at work as easily
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