I observed an interesting discussion today at lunch revolving around the films Waiting To Exhale and Beauty Shop.
White Man: “Black women think that the only men available to them are BM. So when they see a BM with a WW than it’s like a slap in the face.”
White Woman (agrees!): “Yes, and that’s a shame. That is really an insult to themselves {black women}.”
Hmmmmmmm?
Discuss.
217 comments:
1 – 200 of 217 Newer› Newest»I just caught a few moments of WAiting to Exhale an hour ago! IAfter exposure to these blogs (and after being changed by meeting and marrying my white husband) I have a whole new perspective on this movie!!!!
Some moments that struck me:
1) Whitney Houston's mom pushing her to get involved with a married man!!! And giving Whitney a hard time because she didn't want to...and making her feel guilty about it.
2) Lela Rachon sleeping with that guy at work. She wasn't all that attracted or impressed, but he was a black professional man so she thought "oh well, what the heck."
I didn't see the whole movie today. But, it was so clear that the women only wanted black men and they were having mad trouble finding and keeping one.
Angela Bassett was furious that her husband left her for a white woman.
Plus, there wasn't even a dialogue about dating out (except for Angela B's man leaving her for a white woman). The women were older, professional, and feeling quite alone. And the end of the movie speaks volumes: aren't they all together on new year's even around a bon fire or something? Their friendship sustains them, but in the end, they kind of are alone, aren't they? I wonder what the dialogue would be if one of the ladies said, "ever think of dating out and not waiting for these DBRs to get their act together?"
It also reminds me of "The Color Purple." The women only have each other at the end of THAT movie, too!
PS: When I saw this movie, it didn't even cross my mind that these women might want to date out. I just thought, "well, it's rough out there for us..we just gotta be STRONG!" I'm glad Something New came along and flipped that script!
I think this is my first post here.
Well I think the whole, "slap in the face" thing has more to do with BM and the BC telling BM to "Stay stong. Your Black Prince will come. Just wait and go to church and pray and the right black man will come to you." Then those same black men who are telling BW to just sit and wait for the right guy, to share, to lower relationship standards and pull up a broke down brotha are stepping over you to get to a non-black woman. Even while they are with these women and blaming BW for going to non-black women, they are saying, "yeah, I'm with her, but you need to wait for the right black guy to come along". It makes no sense, thus the "slap in the face". "Do as I say, not as I do".
I've had black men with white women give me the stank eye when I was out with my husband, try to intimidate me with their eyes or better yet, try to ignore me like I was vapor because they just don't want to see me happy. I have nothing against BM who are with non-black women, but please don't blame all BW for your choice and then get mad when a white, asian, european, fill in the blank man chooses a BW.
I remember those movies and when I saw them I was a teenager and wondered why these women didn't think of dating a nice white guy? All I thought was that, "dang, that won't be me. I'll get a nice guy whatever the package he comes in and I won't be alone." Guess what? I'm not alone.
I have a sister just like the ones in Waiting to Exhale who will chase after an obviously gay BM, the married black man who is "separated" and will get a divorce soon (that lasted about 5 years or so), and the man who will sex you and get you pregnant and then threatens to toss you down the stairs to get rid of the baby and isn't there for you when you have a still birth. Yes, that has happened, all true, but she refuses to give up on the black man, even though she has been beaten, emotionally abused, tagged along, and financially swindled (each by a different man over the years). WTF?!?!
I saw most of WTE and remember just thinking that the women were nutso.
I guess what was so interesting to me about this conversation was how perceptive they were. I came to the realization that white people are aware of "our issues." I think they are more aware of our issues than we give them credit for.
I also think the choice of words is interesting. For example the WM saying "BW think that the only man they can get is a BM..." which- to me- implies that our thought process is flawed (duh). He didn't say "BW can't get any other man than a BM..." They (a WM and a WW) seem to think that BW are attractive to a larger pool of men; but we can't seem to think that about ourselves.
Am I off base here? How would you interpret the exchange?
I was really embarassed about that "he left me for a WW" part
@kemicutie
To elaborate on the BC some more regarding BW, there are hardly any BM in there. My brother attends a "WC" and the church is teeming with NBMs. I remember getting really excited when an elderly minister acquaintance of mine told me he had a really nice rich lawyer he wanted me to meet. I was soooo excited...my ship had finally come in. But that ship sank when I found he was married with 5 kids. When I questioned the minister why he would want me to meet a married man, he replied, "well with the men shortage, some women are going to have to live that way". I was so disappointed after that, because there isn't enough people out there telling SBF that they have other, more honorable choices.
I would interpret the exchange the same way Zabeth. I beautiful BW can have anyone she wants, but alot of us arent trying to hear that.
p
Meli said...
Good blog topic Zabeth! I was in college when my best friend and I saw "Waiting to...." and I remember every Black woman in the whole theater clapping, saying yes, high fiving and everything when Angela Bassett's character slapped the White mistress. My best friend told me how embarrassed she was about that part of the movie and finally, all these many years later, I feel the same way.
It also took me to mature a bit to see just how damaging those images of BW and BM relationships were -- the elderly mother suggesting strongly that her daughter continue on with a married man just because he was successful, and Lela's character pregnant by a womanizer. I think that most of us were just so happy to see beautiful talented and awesome BW on screen and so we sort of fell for it hook, line, and sinker! Most of those scenes in the movie made us look powerless, jealous, vulnerable, and desperate, and unworthy!
Yes, Zabeth, I agree and take away a positive spin on the comments written by WM and WW. We don't often come across the decent posts, but those were good ones.
Meli
Zabeth--I agree with you completely. I didn't realize that white people might accurately observe things about black women. And it's interesting that a white woman might regret that black women don't realize their desirability to other men besides black men. Heck, I met my husband because a white woman at work convinced me that she knew men who would go out with me in a heartbeat! And how about that movie Something New? Kenya's coworker set up that blind date with Brian. Maybe that's how black women can expand their romantic horizons.
That was a wonderful exchange. However majority of white women, especially those with a superiority complex, dont view black women that way. Considering many of them think that they can "steal a black man" away says it all. Black women to them are not even considered a threat, ofcourse once black women open their horizons that will change. Asians are their threat now and they see it loud an clear. But I gurantee they didnt view asian women as a threat before!!!
Good point "Lovely", I have also read some pretty hurtful opinions of WW (supposedly) about BW not being competition at all. I remember once being out with a very close WF friend of mine and a WM she was seeing and the Asian female waitress was very friendly with him...my friend became loud and said that she was tired of all these damn Asian women, and to this day, she feels very threatened by them.
I also remember going out with her and having WM hit on me...she said once, "I guess these WM really like you." Nevertheless, she was still a friend and never discouraged me. She was pretty positive overall. She even used to hang out with me and my WM ex-fiance with no apparent problems of jealousy, but boy did she hate Asian women. I suspect that many WW envy Asians, but they just are not as vocal about that sort of insecurity as many BW have been when it comes to WW being with BM.
But, let's take all the positive comments we can get from anywhere they come.
I have never watched WTE because even then (with my thoughts still forming about bw and their need to move away from painting themselves as desperate for bm sake), i was extremely uncomfortable with the film and its premise about bw having to 'put up', to 'hold out' etc.
in a way that movie revealed to me that folks like terry Macmillan and the whole cast of essence mag have such a powerful and dangerous hold over the collective thinking of bw, a hold that needs to be broken and soon!
in a way i am glad that Terry ended up with a Gay BM, maybe she will think twice about peddling the messages she keeps sending to bw that they need to stick with the bm option and go to Jamaica if thats what it takes to get one!
I read the WTE book, and thought I was the only woman in the world who hated it. I thought the women were hoish and trashy and couldn't relate.
Zabeth, I agree. Many white people are more than aware of what's going on in the black community. I've had lots of white men tell me how crazy black women's perceptions are. I've spent most of my life hanging with white guys, and even lived in a white frat house briefly in college. Many of them definitely understand that black women have been programmed to believe that no one but a black man would find them attractive.
Tekoa, I hope you told that 'minister friend' of yours to suck rocks. What an absolute asshat. How dare he try to turn you into a whore? What kind of role is that for an alleged 'man of God?'
Even white pople see it. BW are dumbasses for being loyal to a group of men who generally dont give a damn about them!
I love the blog but sometimes I feel like you guys generalize too much.
I remember back to when I first read Terry McMillan's novels. My dominant memory of that time is that her characters and stories were so real that they always left me feeling sad and hopeless not only for myself but also for black women in general. And it's true - I thought she was telling me my life and I'd just have to be resigned to my fate. Which was strange, since though I didn't date much, I dated both black and white men (I was open to other types of men as well, but white guys were the only non-black guys who asked me out). Yet I couldn't seem to escape the feeling that the lives of the black women in TM's books reflected my ultimate fate - either that or "leave" the black community by marrying a non-black man and having the bc feel sorry for me (and perhaps also even feel a little sorry for myself ) at my "loss". Strange and sick. Anyway, I'm glad I know better now. I give TM's books/movies a wide circle now - I don't let them bring me down and I know that they don't necessarily reflect my ultimate fate. I have choices now, and I will choose the best for my life.
I remember when WTE came out. Not long afterwards a wm consultant I was working with decided to watch the movie. We had a pretty good relationship. He told me about the movie and thought the women were nuts. I told him that I would NEVER watch that movie. I have kept that promise to myself.
Whenever I hear the author's name I tune out. That is NOT my life. I will NEVER accept that foolishness. Every person makes choices and have to live with the consequences. I agree that many bw need some serious deprogramming. I'm not one of them. Have never been one.
I'm convinced that more wp are aware of the nonsense called the black community. Some are more empathetic than others. I have been around both groups, mostly ww that hated when bw got around 'their men'. I get along with wm just fine.
Maybe I should not be shocked a charlatan telling a woman to become an adulterer seeing many people in the pulpit are doing it because of the love of money and power, not necessarily committed to decent moral principles. I would have yelled so loud at that man for suggesting such a thing. WHAT A MESS.
Zabeth is minding her own business, drops in for lunch and overhears a conversation that directly relates to what this blog and others consider on a daily basis. I'm no statistician, but what do you figure the odds of that being the ONLY conversation of this type that was going on at that moment? Maybe 1 in One Zillion(it was the biggest number I could think of-LOL). My point is that this whole issue about BW and IRs is coming to the front in ways and places that we would never even suspect. If I had taken an informal poll here on the blog, how many of you would have thought that two people having lunch together would discuss this subject-let alone a WM and WW-in a positive way? Yeah, I'm not sure how I would have voted either! Go figure.
The chance that either of these people will ever visit an IR blog is probably zero, and yet here they were discussing it over lunch! I think that this whole topic has insinuated itself into the public arena, perhaps because of all of the blogging, perhaps because of the celebrity couples or perhaps because of the various articles that have made it into the mass media regarding IRs-WHICHEVER it was or is, I think that this is a perfect illustration of how far this discussion has progressed over a realitively short period of time.
I think that we should all be encouraged. I know I am.
As far as WTE is concerned, I saw the movie first-I love buddy movies and I REALLY LOVE Angela Bassett-and was intrigued enough to want to read the book. After reading the book and mulling over the movie, I have to say that I pretty much agree with Roslyn. I don't think that I disliked it to the extent that she did, but it generally tended to leave some very negative impressions with me.
I remember thinking that if this is what Terry McMillan's (hope I spelled her name right) view is of BM, then I would have thought that she would have married out-but as I understand from several posts on this and other blogs that is not the case. While I understand that her INTENT was to show the strength determination of BW I think, for me at least, it backfired. None of them seemed capable of making decisions that were in their BEST intersts and some of them kept making the same mistake over and over and over and somehow expected different results-the classic definition of insanity! I think the worst for me was the mother who PUSHED for her daughter to get involved with a married man because he was a good catch, yeah, that one still bothers me. Can't imagine a mother suggesting that her daughter do anything of this nature-ever!
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I remember when I first saw WTE and I couldn't relate. I was in college at the time and it was not my experience. I have always been open to dating IR so being "alone" I felt was not going to be an issue for me. Now I know that if I had limited myself to just BM, I would probably still be single.
As for Terry McMillan, look what happened to her marriage...That is another topic for discussion...
Anyway, I think there are BW who limit themselves believing stereotypes and such, and not opening themselves up to dating non-BM. Blogs like this and others are great in opening the mindset of BW who limit their dating pool, dispelling myths, etc.
"Zabeth is minding her own business, drops in for lunch and overhears a conversation that directly relates to what this blog and others consider on a daily basis. I'm no statistician, but what do you figure the odds of that being the ONLY conversation of this type that was going on at that moment?"
That's exactly what I thought when I got back from lunch- what are the odds that I would be privy to this discussion?
re: Kemicutie's sister. Some times I think the low self esteem that results from the initial DBR bm relationship serves as the fuel that keeps the bw going back to such things.
They feel they don't deserve better.
Hi Roslyn. You come to this blog too!! Your comments are too funny. No I didn't tell him to suck rocks. I just declined and stopped attending that church.
Is there anyone on here who is currently living in the South that is in an IR?
Well ladies, I live in Houston and over the last 2 days, I saw 3 IR couples...BW/WM and one couple was at a sushi restaurant!!! I called my cousin up and told her and she said that she thinks higher thinking, level headed BW are starting to see the writing on the wall and accept dates from men who like them. She and I both (not to mention all of you) agree that we can't afford to care what others think of IR dating as long as we are with good guys! These were women of all shades, short shaved hair cuts, pulled back hair, all body shapes too! I say that because some women tend to ask, what the women looked like...to see if they are relatable or something. Just regular everday attractive BW!
"Is there anyone on here who is currently living in the South that is in an IR?"
I'm in Alabama. Is that south enough for you? My dh and I have been together for 10 years. Married for almost eight. And I'm glad you stopped attending that church. I'm amazed God didn't sent a bolt of lightning to burn it to the ground with that type of evil leading it.
I suspect the lightning bolts will come with these charades called churches when more and more people bolt and take their CASH with them. I'm looking forward to that day.
It is interesting that Zabeth would happen to hear this conversation. It is enlightening to say the least considering who was speaking.
@Roslyn,
Alabama?? You're Deep baby!!! South Carolina here. Previously lived in Raleigh, NC for about 10 years, but was raised up north. Talk about culture shock.
That minister was also a medical doctor. Would you believe he lost his license to practice medicine for some weird reason? I guess that could count as a lightening bolt.
I'm going to stop using Zabeth's blog to stop chatting it up with you, but it's so nice to meet another fellow southerner. Take care.
Zabeth:
White Man: “Black women think that the only men available to them are BM. So when they see a BM with a WW than it’s like a slap in the face.”
White Woman (agrees!): “Yes, and that’s a shame. That is really an insult to themselves {black women}.”
My reponse:
How enlightened, and surprising, who it was coming from!
It's about whether bw have enough self-esteem, whether they know who and what they are, that they can find happiness on their own terms. But too many women don't, so the personal lives of complete strangers, in the context of IR, can make them go crazy!
It is kind of amazing that Zabeth should overhear this conversation. It reminds me of that saying "when the student is ready, the teacher appears". I can't tell you how often once my consciousness has been raised about something how all of a sudden relevant experiences seem to come to me.
Also, re the comment about what the IR couples looked like, I think in the back of the minds of a lot of BW's, because of our own experience with BM's and the BC's ideas of what is beautiful in a woman, some of us think that the only BW's who will really be in IR's are those who look like Halle Berry. We tend to think that non-BP always have the same ideas/prejudices concerning beauty that BP have internalized, and that is not always the case.
Also, re the conversation that Zabeth overheard, a lot of the time we think that because we either avoid looking at a problem or deny that there is a problem out of our own dysfunction, that other people (who aren't similarly motivated to avoid or deny the problem) are doing the same. Not true - they can see the problem just like we can, and sometimes better, because they're not as emotionally caught up in it as we are and because the truth of the situation won't hurt or sting them the way it may hurt or sting us. Just because we deceive ourselves doesn't mean that others are also similarly deceived. BP have swept so many issues under the rug and we think because we do this that we've succeeded in covering up those issues, but we're lying to ourselves. We're more transparent than we think.
While were at it why dont we talk about films like disapearing acts, love and basketball, and the likes about black women insecurities in film. WTE was pathetic but I dont think it was meant to be but as someone else stated it backfired. But in disapearing acts Sanna lathan character really ticked me off. She represent the typical beautiful level headed sistah that falls for the dbr man.
You are right Sandra...about the definition of beauty in the BC. I do give BW a pass on that when they ask, because I used to be guilty of that too. The only times I have heard non-BM state a preference, it was for darker women -- I'm sure that on some level that may be offensive to lighter toned BW though.
But, you are right Sandra, I think most of us are still trying to get comfortable in our own skins and escape some of the negative vibes/messages of the BC.
Someone spoke of the book "Disappearing Acts", I read that my Sophomore year in College and I could not put it down -- Terry is an amazing writer hands down, but I did remember thinking, how is this put together, sharp, smart, talented woman even drawn to this man? At that point, I really thought that all BW would have to settle on this type of man...and of course, he had to be Black.
It's been many years since I read the book, but I also recall the BM character feeling like the BW was not supportive of him!! Ladies, I am not even attracted to a man who does not have his life (and all that entails) together, and so many BW are putting up with anything because it looks good to their families and friends that they have a man...a BM.
forever loyal said
I saw most of WTE and remember just thinking that the women were nutso.
Roslyn said
I read the WTE book, and thought I was the only woman in the world who hated it. I thought the women were hoish and trashy and couldn't relate.
I completely agree! Hated it! Personally, I don't know of any professional black women who behave like the women in WTE. In fact, not a fan of Terry MacMillian at all, primarily because her books seem to be about who she is (which given the shallowness of her characters says something) and where she's at in her life.
Meli said
The only times I have heard non-BM state a preference, it was for darker women -- I'm sure that on some level that may be offensive to lighter toned BW though.
Frankly, I've heard this from non-BM men as well. And as a black woman who's on the lighter end of the color spectrum, I can't say I'm offended, but it does make me raise an eyebrow and wonder if there's something weird going on.
I feel the same way about the brothers who chase after the lightest black women they can find....why some folks obsess about the degree of melanin a potential partner has in their skin is beyond me.
meli said...
Someone spoke of the book "Disappearing Acts", I read that my Sophomore year in College and I could not put it down -- Terry is an amazing writer hands down, but I did remember thinking, how is this put together, sharp, smart, talented woman even drawn to this man? At that point, I really thought that all BW would have to settle on this type of man...and of course, he had to be Black.
It's been many years since I read the book, but I also recall the BM character feeling like the BW was not supportive of him!! Ladies, I am not even attracted to a man who does not have his life (and all that entails) together, and so many BW are putting up with anything because it looks good to their families and friends that they have a man...a BM.
My response:
There are together bw who put up with this, particularly if a woman believes that putting up with drama gives her a special dispensation as a black woman, for sticking by her man through the hard times and the good times.
TMcMillan is part of that Essence perspective that much of "black love" is all about drama!
Women are particularly likely to take this view if they see being with a black man as a mission, a black nationalist one, which of course, is centered around how well women are supportive of bm, and which presumes that all bm are worthy of such support...
Can someone here tell me why the ZANE books are sooo popular? I didn't know Zane from a hole in the ground until some of the ladies at work said I sould read one-er, aaaa, okaaaaaayyy. I finally figured out the reason they said that was to see if my face would turn red-it did-LOL.
Seriously, after about three titles I said these things play into the worst sterotypes of hypersexual BW imaginable and haven't read one since.
So did I miss something, or is it like Terry McMillan's stuff that really doesn't do the overall image of BW any good but for some reason has a wide acceptance and appeal?
I dont know why ppl like Zane either her books are horrible IMO.
What you have to understand Grant is that before Terry McMillian came along you didn't see black folks in fiction. According to NY publishing houses, black folks didn't read. Of course, now they know that not only do we read, we read more than whites.
There were a few authors in literature, Toni Morrison comes to mind, but none in fiction. Imagine just wanting to pick up a book to take to the beach or on a plane and having nothing to read that have black people in it. So, when WTE came out, folk literally went nuts. I remember literally screaming in the bookstore, "There's black people in this book! There's black people in this book!"
Even now, in many bookstores our books are segregated from other genre fiction, into a special 'African-American' section. I'm a romance writer, and I have to explain to my white in-laws that my books are not included with the romances, but are over in the Negro ghetto of the bookstore.
There are still very few horror, mystery or science fiction writers who are black. Zane took off presumably because black people wanted to read erotica with black people in it. I haven't read any Zane books--I prefer my erotica interracial. Black erotica that wasn't written for white male consumption didn't exist before Zane either.
So these authors may or may not be the best, but when they're all you've got, you take them and are grateful for them.
Roslyn:
Many thanks for the exposition, it was much appreciated.
Do you write under your own name or do you have a pen name? Now you really didn't think that I was NOT going to check out your work did you-LOL? And miss the oportunity to tell the ladies at work "oh, yeah, I was just talking to Roslyn the other day"-gloat, gloat:-)
I agree that the doors have not always been open for black women writers, but I think Terry's real appeal is that she sort of started the black chick lit trend...but there were lot's of others BW writers before her who have written much better books IMO, like Octavia Butler (she explore interracial themes from an interspecies sci fi perspective), Jamaica Kincaid, J. California Cooper, Gloria Naylor, to name a few that don't get enough credit.
Grant, I writer under my own name. Check out my website.
roslynhardyholcomb.com
I've got excerpts and my blog there.
Trvlgrl, I know Butler was around before TM, but in sci-fi. I don't know about those others though.
Zabeth,
I've heard white men say this kind of thing before--to me & around me. For many reasons black women are the only ones who don't accept that they're attractive to 'other' men. But I have to say my mouth drops at these words from a white woman. I've yet to meet a white woman who encouraged black women to see themselves as attractive to all males (except my aunt). Thanks for sharing this. It's eye opening.
Roslyn
ROCK STAR!
Bought it abt 4 months ago & didn't get any sleep. Couldn't put it down until the end (luckily it was the weekend). Delicious. Of course, I recommended it to fam & friends.
Also, I like that you keep MF on his toes.
My sister is a librarian at a black library in South Florida. She is in charge of the young adult readership program, and she says ALL the adolescent kids want to read is Zane books! I have never read Zane, but my sister has described her books to me and they make blush. I may be a bit old-fashioned, but I don't know that it's a good idea for kids that age to be living on a diet of erotica. They're already growing up in a world that seems to devoid of romance and idealism. It makes me wonder what they're going to expect from life/dating/relationships by the time they reach 18. But maybe I'm just being a Chicken Little.
Thank you Patsgirl. Make sure you download the little mini-sequel. I'm almost finished with my next book, and I hope to find a publisher soon. Check back on my website for updates.
Sandra:
Move over, I'll sit on the chicken little roost with you! Of all the things that they could be reading and the library is providing them with Zane-SMH! I'm with you, what kind of expectations will they derive about real life from erotica? I better stop right here, because I feel a rant coming on.
I checked out Classical 1's blog where people seem really hyped on the idea of a Barnes & Noble/Borders IR night. One thing I noticed though is that a lot of the posts are from female names, and not so many male names. Are we going to end up with a lot of women showing up for IR night and not so many men?
^^ maybe they are reading and not responding
I don't know...am I just being negative here? I don't know if I would show up at Barnes & Noble Books for IR night.
I think the word and the idea is maybe not spread enough into non-black communities for there to be a great surge. However, the guys who just casually show up w/o knowing its IR dating may be in for a surprise lolol
But right, the other male halves are not in the know. Or are they?
I live in the South, and I'm a serial Ir dater! I live in the southernmost part of mississippi.
-honeybunch
So we are actually supposed to believe that this discussion actually happened?
^^^^ LOL! I was waiting for this type of comment. I think I know which troll this is.
Anyway, this conversation did happen. Why would I make it up?
I don't record my life so, no I don't have proof of it. All you have is my word. Take it or leave, I don't care either way.
"Why would I make it up?"
To promote your agenda?
One of the things that cause the honesty on this site to be questioned is this. Your sidebar featers Gerald Butler stating his love for black women, yet you fail to note that he is specifically speaking of Brazilian women. These are the same Brazilian women that you and others like you criticize black men for seeking out.
Yeah, my agenda, the conspiracy...whatever. I have way too much going on in my life to spend time making things up.
Yes, Butler is referring to Brazilian BW, anyone who follows the link and reads the entire article would know that. But a BW is a BW. Nonetheless Butler has expressed interest in many different types of black women- or women for that matter. I don’t ever recall Naomi Campbell being referred to as Brazilian, have you?
Finally Michael, don’t put words in my mouth or lump me into a category. I don’t criticize BM for dating out- I’ve expressly stated that:
http://zabethblog.blogspot.com/2007/07/embarrassed-about-preference-part-i.html.
What I am critical of is the disrespect leveled at BW often at the hands of BM, this notion that BW do not have widespread appeal, the BM and BM only ideal, and the hypocrisy and double standards surrounding IR dating in the BC.
What I am critical of is the disrespect leveled at BW often at the hands of BM,
What about the reverse? And such disrespect is leveled at women in general and overly affects black women only due to proximity. Black male disrespect from black women commonly targets black males specifically.
this notion that BW do not have widespread appeal,
A notion created by your own perception with little basis in reality.
the BM and BM only ideal
Your perception.
and the hypocrisy and double standards surrounding IR dating in the BC.
Mostly your perception.
And I wish you could realize the futility of repeatedly calling me Michael.
@ anon @ 1:01
If you think all the women posting to this blog are so stupid and just plain wrong then why are you trying to talk to us?
Sounds to me like you must be really worried and scared that bws will start listening to the convo on these IR blogs and won't put up with your sorry mess anymore. Otherwise, seems to me you'd be happy to let us go about our business as it really doesn't concern you in the least.
anon said
"Why would I make it up?"
To promote your agenda?
And why do you care about Zabeth's agenda?...unless you're worried that she's speaking truth!
Zabeth,
Have you thought of moderating your blog?
Zabeth, I know it's been suggested that you might want to moderate your blog. I may be in the minority on this, but I find letting the trolls post their views here very enlightening. It's amazing to see their levels of fear, self-delusion, outright lies, hyperbole, hypersensitivity, lack of wit, charm or even the most basic manners. They prove your case - if anyone doubts the existence and danger of the DBR, they have only to read the posts of these DBR's, to have all doubt removed. The worst kind of incrimination is self-incrimination, particularly when it was really meant in self-defense!
In regard to moderating comments, I stopped allowing anonymous comments for several months. But I do think exploring as many different points of view- no matter how much we may dislike them- is important sometimes. Sandra's right, they expose themselves.
roslynholcomb said...
...I have to explain to my white in-laws that my books are not included with the romances, but are over in the Negro ghetto of the bookstore.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can't stand this practise of placing books by black authors in a "special" section. Sometimes I've seen books that have no commentary on race or a racial component in these sections just because the author is black.
I hated that movie I was about 10 when I first saw it. I'm going to college right now and I'm a freshman. In high school the girls were already told to settle for the black boys that were in high school. These were girls 14-19 in age.The blacks boys were thugs in my high school. Pants hanging down doing drugs. Just in school to have fun and do drugs. The decent Black boys that we had out of 175 were only 20 which were taken quickly by the decent black girls or white females.Now what happen to the rest of the 200 black females since the decent 20 are gone. They all go to date the thugs even some of the decent girls. Unless you weren't afraid to be alone which most of them weren't. Girls will fight and sleep which each other boyfriends and have babies with them . I'm surprised no one had HIV in my school. The whites guys that did go to my school thought that all of us were nasty freaks. But some of us did get to date a few and little by little they changed there mind and knew who the decent girls were.
I was the person who posted about meeting at Barnes and Noble or Borders on a certain night.
I think it will work and people will find out about it. Look....it already got posted on this site.
For those BW like me who are want to start dating more and meeting more eligible WM, we cannot afford to wait. That's what we've been doing...waiting. We need to act. It may not be the perfect plan but its a start. No one is talking about the ACTIONS that we need to take.
What's the plan for say, 2 IR dates a month. We have to start somewhere.
Lisa, I'm just wondering about the logistics of meeting at B & N or Borders in different cities. It would be great to make it the same night of the week every 2nd week of the month perhaps? The difficult part would be to pick a particular store in each city - I wonder if there's a way that could be facilitated online? Once we get that far, it should be easy enough to stipulate an area of the store to meet.
I note that Classical 1 has made a start to this by setting up a poll on his blog asking people to vote on a day or days of the week to meet, so that should help to establish the day(s) of the week that will work for most people. Does anyone have any suggestions on how we choose the particular store in each city to meet?
What cities are represented here?
Sandra said...
I checked out Classical 1's blog where people seem really hyped on the idea of a Barnes & Noble/Borders IR night. One thing I noticed though is that a lot of the posts are from female names, and not so many male names. Are we going to end up with a lot of women showing up for IR night and not so many men?
I definitely think that will be the case until it becomes known in circles that white men congregate in. In the beginning, simply showing up might not be enough...
I think we should simultaneously find ways of 'notifying' the pool of men that we are interested in talking to.
Also, C1's poll shows that Saturday has the highest scoring. I think Saturdays are problematic... because that's a high traffic day. A Tuesday or Wednesday night will have fewer people, which raises the likelihood that a particular person came to meet for IR purposes.
My friends and I have decided to make a joint account on a local online dating site. We are going to message several men that we are interested in, and say that if they would like to meet us, they can find us at the bookstore at a certain time.
I will let you know how it works out.
Oh yeah, I meant to add to my post that high traffic can raise the possibility that an unsuspecting black woman NOT interested in IR could be approached. And that would be a very uncomfortable situation for both of them.
(Even though I can't wait for a bw who isn't in the know to say, 'WTH? Is there something in the air in here??'
I think a weeknight would probably be better too. Saturday is already date/girlfriend night. What are some clever, but not obvious, ways of getting the word out?
I voted sunday. but we're lossing :(
Many of the IR dating sites have blogs, what about letting folks on those blogs know that some of us are considering meeting on designated nights at B&N and Borders?
I voted for Thursday, and I'm in the San Francisco Bay Area (I prefer either Emeryville or Jack London Square in Oakland). Anyone else on here from the East Bay?
Hey Grant,
I think posting on the IR dating blog sites is a nice idea. Just be careful that it's a 'dating' site and not a 'discreet hookup' type of site.
Zabeth I wanted to make two comments. The first, I represent NC by location, Detroit, Michigan by hometown and California by birth.
And to address moderating your blog, I say no- with the exception of someone was using profanity or something along those lines. I think the comments would show just how weak and afraid some people are in regards to bw/wm relationships.
I agree... I don't mind dissenting opinions, but if someone is getting abusive, they should probably be deleted.
yes i love it! the fact that we are moving into the action phase!
there is no plan that is a perfect plan and nothing says we cannot have 2 or three days to meet at B&N! Even 2 or three other connecting plans running alongside the B&N idea!
this is the start and we have to get the ball rolling, nothing is to say we cant get back to the drawing board to perfect the plan later but lets not shrink back from talking action.
dating also involves sacrifice, those of us who can shift a few thing around need to be willing to stretch a bit!
like i said we can have a couple of days not just one!
Hey Selena:
How close to Winston-Salem, Greensboro or High Point are you?
Zabeth, Gerry Butler obviously dates non-Brazilian black women. I have a picture of him with a woman named Josie D'Arby (very obviously of African descent) that I tried to post but it needs to be re-formatted. Other pics can be dug up also since this man has a pattern of gravitating towards darker women. He actually had a relationship with this woman according to the note I got with the picture.
Still these DBR trolls will try to make it appear that wm and other non-bm don't want bw for love and marriage.
I think that BW should pull off the kid gloves with anyone who tries to make them feel unattractive and unwanted like this DBRbm troll. This causes so much damage to the self esteem of black women and girls until this should not be taken lightly. This is pure and deadly POISON. Black girls and women are DYING as a result of sexing diseased DBR men due to the fact that the females don't think they can get better since their self esteem has been beaten to a pulp. Or these women are accepting to live less-than lives simply because they've been told over and over that they're not desirable or not desirable enough.
Black females must stand up in force against any and all that would try to make a bf feel less than. We must stop tip-toeing around these DBR characters and develop an absolute immunity to them and be willing to confront them toe to toe IF necessary.
As I said on my latest blog, it actually is a civil rights issue for a bw to choose who she wants to love. Sistas must also immunize their daughters to them because as they see more and more of us "escaping," they're going to turn up the heat.
grant said...
Hey Selena:
How close to Winston-Salem, Greensboro or High Point are you?
I said:
Hey Grant about 90 miles south. I was up there a few months ago having a blast at "Wet'n Wild"
Zabeth said...
I think a weeknight would probably be better too. Saturday is already date/girlfriend night
September 21, 2007 6:06 PM
There may be something to that, but I think experience will have to be our guide. No one has mentioned San Diego, let alone the area where I live, but I'm going to the local B&N tonight anyway, just to see how it is on a Saturday night. If it is extra crowded, the weeknight might be better; but it might also be very quiet, with all the singles gone to other places. At least I'll have a data point to contribute to the discussions tomorrow. And who knows, maybe I'll notice a nice-looking older bw looking at the latest issue of Sea and Pacific Motor Boat magazine ... doesn't hurt to think positive.
I plan to set up at a reading spot close to the ethnic studies section, with a copy of Enough by Juan Williams. I read it when it came out and will enjoy the reread, so even if nothing turns up, it will be time well spent.
Evia you're my fukking hero!
I am glad that a few of you have addressed the troll on this board. The smell of fear is overwhelming esp. as it relates to BW living and desiring a fulfilled life just like everyone else.
There is obvious fear noted when a troll comes on to split hairs about the type of women Gerard Butler likes. Naomi Campbell and Josie D'Arby are not Brazilian! Also, I believe he was either promoting a movie or filming one there and no doubt he took notice of the spectrum of beautiful dark women.
The trolls on any board are also the type who say that Gerard Butler is probably gay, because they are jealous that he has stated his preference and also dates his preference. There were awful comments made about actress Rosario Dawson (pictured with Gerard Butler)-- just more hatin' plain and simple.
uh o, THE TROLLS ARE SCAAAAAARED. Huff and Puff all you want but you will never deter me :))
Couldn't the comments also be seen as just another example of a white person invalidatng black perception of the black experience? Often -- note, not always, I don't even know if it's most of the time, but often -- whites feel that claims of racism and discrimination (social and occupational) are exaggerated by blacks, and that the world is much fairer to blacks (sometimes, in their eyes, it's in our favor at their expense) than blacks see it as. As an addendum to/natural extension of this theory/vision of a fair world, some folks would assume that distributions of attraction are also fair to blacks (in this case, BFs), even with no personal proof that they actually are. Kind of like, "Well, I'm not attracted to BFs, and none of my friends or family, or anyone I know is, but there must be someone, somewhere (in a non-threatening, yet significant amount) that is, because the world is fair and blacks are delusional for acting as if it's not." When I was young(er) and naive, I used to see perspectives like that on "black" issues as objective and perhaps refreshing -- because, after all, who DOESN'T want to believe that the world is fair and that people are inherently good -- but I realize now that the people who hold them definitely have a vested interest in doing so. I remember seeing WTE when I was... 8, and I had no idea what it was about, but in retrospect, it was pretty pathetic -- even though I liked the burning scene.
Alicia Silverstone character in Beauty Shop got a pass for dating a black guy - would the same be true if a bw dated a wm in the movie?
To the general community:
I wasn't sure how to bring this experience into the blog discussions, but Evia's latest post and her comment here today
seemed to say that HERE was the place, NOW was the time and RIGHT NOW was the how.
A week ago I went out of town to see a friend who had asked me to help her set up a training-weight loss program. We had never discussed the why of her weight gain and I never felt comfortable enough to broach the subject with her, she was doing something about it and that was good enough for me.
During the course of going over the training and eating plans, we covered her ultimate target weight and the possibiilty that she might want to enter a figure competition at a future date. A little bit of small talk followed and then she voluntarily explained the how and why of the weight gain. Now, you need to understand that this woman used to do modeling and was, by every definition of the term, an absolutely drop-dead gorgeous BW! Yeah, I do mean the kind that makes folks stop and say, "Dayyyam, that is one fine looking woman". That was 7 years and 100+ lbs. ago. She went from about 130 to around 240lbs in a very short span of time. The reason was because of the extreme verbal abuse that she experienced from BM when she was out with her WM companion!!
It seems that her WM friend was very average looking and the fact that she was out in public with him was too much for these BM to endure!!! After all, she BELONGED to the BC and by extension was OWNED by BM in general-at least that is the way that they perceived things. The audacity of any BW this beautiful dating out with such and average looking WM when such fine looking specimens as themselves were available was too much and demanded a response from the bc and these BM felt that they needed to make that response loud and clear by confronting her constantly in public places.
As she was recounting this, it was very obvious that she had been hurt, no actually, based on her response to their continuous taunts, I think traumatized is a better term, by this verbal onslaught. In order to make this type of harrasment stop, she decided to make herself "less" beautiful, so she started eating and putting on weight!! Lots and lots of weight. The kind of weight that puts your health at risk and makes your self-image tank. All because a bunch of "low lifes" decided that it was their job to publicly humiliate this woman and her mate. I was trying to remian calm while she was telling me this, but it was getting harder and harder the more I thought about it!! Yeah, I know I'm using too many exclamation points, but I'm starting to get mad all over again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The good news is that she finally realized that she cannot let other people dictate who she does or does not go out with. Who she is or is not seen in public with. And she cannot allow her response to them to jeopordize her own health and happines. Her own words say it best, "TO HELL WITH THEM".
To date she has lost over 50 lbs. and is well on her way to a goal of 130-140 lbs. as well as a goal of finally deciding that SHE will determine who she has a relationship with and NO ONE ELSE. She has the drive and committment to achieve these goals, and I fully expect to be cheering for her in a figure competition in the near future.
In line with Evia's thinking, this was not just a couple of BM acting up a little, this was well and truly a violation of this BWs right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happines-and in case you trolls don't know this, those are CONSTITUTIONALY guarranteed rights. Evia is also correct, I think, in her argument that it is time we begin to look at this type of treatment as a civil rights violation instead of someone just not being civil because they think they are right! Contempt for this type of behavior should have reached critical mass a long time ago, perhaps now it will.
Ya'll will have to forgive me, as I am not as eloquent as Zabeth, Evia or Halima, but I hope the substance of this story comes through in spite of my poor writing skills. This type of treatment has got to stop and the more it is exposed, the greater the chance that it will.
I remember seeing Waiting to Exhale in the theater. Two things I never understood: 1) I never understood why they were so made b/c the other woman was white. Cheating is cheating! 2) the film is set in AZ, no white, asian or latino men enter their lives. I've been to Arizona, non-Black men are everyone. They kept talking to me all the time. It was surpising b/c in NY they look at bw but don't always approach.
Ladies, let's remember who directed this film, Forrest Whitaker. Would a black man really advocate that black women date interracially? Or the books writer, Terry McMillian. Y'all know how messed up her love live was.
On Grant's Post,
Ladies I'll say it again.
SLAVERY ENDED A LONG TIME AGO in this country. Your bodies and lives do not belong to anyone or any community.
It pisses me off that women (or anyone)are subjected to this kind of harassment. And you never know how DBR these people are (who don't even know you). Are they prone to violence?
I've had some bm spit in our direction when I was with my wm boyfriend. You never know how those things might escalate.
But these things should not deter people from finding and pursuing their own happpiness. We have to be strong to deal with hate no matter where it comes from and not allow people (often those who don't even know us) to determine how we treat ourselves or live or lives.
***clencher pictures***
Say, Zabeth, Evia, Halima, et al:
I was wondering if it would be more effective (to those still on the fence about IR dating) to show pics of IR with the wm doing homelife type things?
For instance, I have a pic of my husband combing out the kinks in our daughters hair before bed. Its so cute! (but I don't think he'd want to to post it on the internet. LOL)
But some such pictures where the guy is doing some cutsy thing you'd never find them doing had they not dated /married a bw.
I once saw a friend of mine -a wm who's IR married with a load of boys- trying to get everybody to hold hands to cross the street. It was sweet to see! I'm sure most folks would think, are these his sons? But they are! I didn't take a picture but it was so sweet to see. etc.
.. I am not as eloquent as Zabeth, Evia or Halima,..
You're doing well enough.
The situation you describe is intolerable. Can't add more now, everything comes out angry with nothing helpful.
Hey, may I interject w / an encouraging story?
When I was engaged, I went around looking for a wedding photographer. I went to some guy who was known for doing really good work.
I figured, since he's from German descent, even though he's a photographer, I needed to give him a run down on how to take black folks' pictures.
I started, "you probably may not know this, but I need a lot of light....."
He stopped me in my tracks and showed me a picture of a beautiful black girl he had taken a picture of.
I looked. "Yes, that's great!"
He looked at me dryly and said, "that's my daughter."
I shut my mouth after that.
MISSING SISTA ALERT:
http://christopherhedges.com/life/2007/09/missing-nailah-franklins-car-found-in.html
SPREAD THE WORD!!
Adding to what meli said today at 10:28am about comments regarding Gerard Butler's taste in women - what gets me is when the haters describe the non-ww that a wm is photogged with as "exotic," like they are so unusual that they should not even be considered women. It's disgusting to me.
Grant & Arthur:
I have not gone through what Grant's friend did. That was pretty extreme and horrible. However I have experienced some amazing nonsense in the bc over the years. The idea that we are to be ready at the whim of the bm there was amazing to me. If I am pressed too hard I can and will end the madness with it never coming back in my face again. I'm not going to put myself somewhere that I know will cause me unnecessary grief. I have been fortunate that I have not had any problems like that since I left the bc.
Grant, please continue to encourage your friend. Her esteem really needs to be restored. It's bad enough for that to happen in other settings but when it happens in a place like 'church' where people are supposed to be attempting to be like Christ it makes it way more hurtful. It is very difficult to recover from spiritual abuse but it is possible. I'm glad someone with some sense has contact with her. It seems like she had been in the twilight zone.
DBRBM who attack BW/WM couples should be charged with a hate crime.
Gosh what happened to that Nailah girl really sucks. She's so pretty. It reminds me of a similar case in Raleigh, NC last year. My friend's sister was abducted as she was driving into the parking garage to work. She had just dropped her husband off at work at the hospital. That was the last time, she was seen alive. My prayers are with the family that this girl will be found soon, alive and well.
Now I'm confused. Does BC stands for Black Church or Black Culture. At first I thought it stood for Black church, but then I thought, it could stand for black culture. And what the heck does DBR mean?
Grant
I am sorry this happen to your friend. Please show her this blog and let her know we are all pulling for her.
BC= Black community
DBR= Damaged beyond repair
OMG, tekeo I am so sorry this happen to your sister. May god bless and your family. You always think these things happen to other ppl but never you or nyone you love.
God Bless
This convo reminds me something. Remember the bobby and whitney reality show. There was a scene where whitney and booby were eating outside, i forgot where, and fans came up to them. Whitney was agitated with evryone coming up to her. Theres was a particular white female fan that wanted to come up to bobby but was very hesistant and said something like , "now thats a sistah I dont want to mess with" (in refernce to withney). I was laughing that a white girl said this.
My jaw dropped to the ground when I read Grant's post about his friend who gained quite literally, a whole person in weight! I also believe it totally - how very disturbing a scenario this woman and her boyfriend were living, by being verbally abused/tormented by these DBR men. It's awesome that she is on the road to getting her life back!
This is harassment! It seems all too commom for some BW who date outside the BC. This behavior has also been tolerated by BW for so long and also BM have witnessed it in action and not taken a stand. We are reaping the consequences of allowing the smallest levels of disrespect for women (BW) to enter and stay in the "Black community."
It has been OK to insult and degrade bw for so long -- some of the urban music demonstrates this, and the lack of REAL speaking out against it has finally come home to roost. I know one thing, if I ever feel threatened by a man of any race because he does not 'approve' of the man I am dating, I will report him to the higher authority of the establishment in which I am a patron. Now, on the street is a little different because sometimes these idiots decide to follow and harass the woman and her date -- call 911!
What would you all do if faced with this? This is what I "feel" I would do, I was feeling a little angry that any woman would be facing this type of back lash from "bullies." However, my safety and the safety of my date/husband, etc. would be of greater concern naturally. This has never happened to me, and I honestly don't know what I would do. Afterall, rights are being violated.
It has been my experience that many white women and men consider black women as inferior. So this conversation surprises me, and I have a hard time believing that the majority of white folks think that black women are worthy or capable of IR relationships. It may be the fact that I live in the south...but any conversations from white people that I have ever overheard or heard about through a third party about black women have generally been racist.
Anonymous said:
"It has been my experience that many white women and men consider black women as inferior. So this conversation surprises me, and I have a hard time believing that the majority of white folks think that black women are worthy or capable of IR relationships. It may be the fact that I live in the south..."
I'm kind of the in the same boat with this guy. I've usually heard negativity when it comes to BW being desirable for IR, not from BM, but other males also. So it's refreshing to meet women on this blog who've had a different experience, but at times I'm still a little skeptical about the degree of desirability equaling that of WF. Maybe it's a southern thing.
Hmmmm, such a convo to me doesn't seem so impossible. Rare, but not impossible.
There really are some people who are open minded out there...
I think my mother in law is one of them. I suppose if it was her that was over heard it would still seem impossible.
i think if the woman is very successful then she may not feel so threatened by bw and can even dish out compliments with out fear that she's sharing or giving away a limited commodity -honor.
Hey Anon 1:07:
I think we are dealing with the old problem of "perception being reality". For instance the "perception" of many BW, as witnessed by the posts on this and other IR blogs, is that WM do not find them attractive and would never consider them as potential mates. The "reality" is, also as witnessed by posts, considerably at odds with the conventional thinking, i.e., a great many WM do find BW attractive and extremely desirable as mates.
I think that one of the greatest services that the blogs such as Zabeth's and others perform is to help BW and WM realize that their "perceptions" do not always match the "reality" where IRs are concerned. There seems to be a constant sense on both sides of the racial aisle that, "Oh, so that's what you REALLY think! Huh, I never realized that!"
So while it may be difficult for you to believe the thrust of this conversation based on your past experiences, I would ask that you consider the possibility that your "perception" may not be the "reality" for a great many people out there-in particular this couple that Zabeth overheard at lunch.
For me, as I stated in an earlier post on this thread, the most interesting aspect about this conversation was that it was probably ONE OF MANY similar conversations that were taking place at the same time in different places all over the country!! And Zabeth felt exactly the same way that I did!
Oh, also, I live in the south, and have for 35 years.
having said that, I don't think IR is the "new norm". I think its a road less traveled.
People willing to embark upon this path must think themselves as maybe pioneers maybe? Or at least understand that they should live life more consciously and not get sucked into social pressures.
Kinda makes me think of the frog experiment. Some scientist put a frog in a flask (?) and turned up the heat ever so slowly. more and more heat, they added,but each time the frog got so used to that heat, and didn't try to escape. Finally, it was too late and .......crunchy frog legs anyone?
Also, for those in IR relationships (or even just opened to it), I think if one is not careful, one can get lulled back into the whole social stereotypical thinking:
How can it be?
a ww should say nice things about a bw?
a wm should like us?
A bm should hurt me?
How can it be?
Doubt upon doubts. Soon the whole self esteem comes acrashing, God forbid.
Also, so who cares that a ww should think good or bad? Its not about her whether she recognizes the plight of bw or not.
Also, so who cares that a ww should think good or bad? Its not about her whether she recognizes the plight of bw or not.
--------------------
THANK YOU!!!!!!!!
To "anon" @ 1:07, I suppose it makes you feel good to make such a statement about how others view BW. It really doesn't matter how "others" look at BW, what really counts is that we start to see ourselves as we are: capable, loveable, feminine, smart women! We have to fight hard to rise above the disgusting stereotypes, and we are. The increased numbers of WM/BW couples I am seeing in my part of TEXAS is proof enough that we are removing the ties, lies, hurtful messages, and other barriers that have kept us down.
Adding to this, BW are dating and marrying men of other races, so please explain to me why that happens, if we are so inferior? Ladies, we should not be overly concerned with those who think they are superior, instead give a chance to the ones who want to enter our lives in am amazing way!
Anyone coming on to this blog to say such stuff just proves to me that folks are still trying to throw messages of unworthiness at BW. Who knows what images these "superiors" have in mind when they are calling BW inferior. For instance, I don't think folks consider Condi Rice, Maxine Waters , or Oprah "inferior." There are many of us cut from the same cloth as these women...we are certainly not inferior.
Light bulb moment! Be prepared BW, comments like the one made by Anon @ 1:07 are only coming about because we are becoming more self actualized. We are being courted and married to - other men, real men, successful men and the haters can't stand it! By the way, every WM I have dated, esp. my ex-fiance never thought of me as inferior!!
"My sister is a librarian at a black library in South Florida. She is in charge of the young adult readership program, and she says ALL the adolescent kids want to read is Zane books! I have never read Zane, but my sister has described her books to me and they make blush. I may be a bit old-fashioned, but I don't know that it's a good idea for kids that age to be living on a diet of erotica. They're already growing up in a world that seems to devoid of romance and idealism. It makes me wonder what they're going to expect from life/dating/relationships by the time they reach 18. But maybe I'm just being a Chicken Little."
I can't believe children are reading Zane as if they're not bombarded with enough sex in music and in tv and movies!!! Shouldn't there be some kind of age limit on these books?
I think Zane's books are SMUT and she's an awful writer.
Yes there are white people who still view black people as inferior and there in lies racism, SHOCKER, i know. There are blacks whom also see whites as inferior. Blacks can be racist too, I know SCHOCKING right. You know the devil white man or woman. The point is to examine who we are as inviduals within a whole group of marginality and larger contect in a society.
They're already growing up in a world that seems to devoid of romance and idealism. It makes me wonder what they're going to expect from life/dating/relationships by the time they reach 18. But maybe I'm just being a Chicken Little."
I can't believe children are reading Zane as if they're not bombarded with enough sex in music and in tv and movies!!!
yeah it's kind of depressing knowing all/some/many teens are out there giving each other BJs.
Evia says : said...
Zabeth, Gerry Butler obviously dates non-Brazilian black women.
Nobody said that he doesn't. The point is that in this situation, he was specifically referring to Brazilian women as 'black', which most of them are. Yet when black men actively seek out these very same black Brazilian women, they are accused of seeking out non-black women. On the other hand, Gerry Butler's expression of love for Brazilian women is embraced as him expressing love for black women. Why the double standard?
It reminds me of how you post pics of Rosario Dawson with her white boyfriend and herald that as a bw/wm relationship, yet if she was with an African American man, he would be another black guy hooking up with a Latina.
EVERYBODY PLEASE GO TO
http://foreverloyal.wordpress.com/
interesting IR convo
Yet when black men actively seek out these very same black Brazilian women, they are accused of seeking out non-black women.
Really? I've never heard that. I have a whole side of my family that are latin/spanish speaking (Honduras), and they haven't caught any flak from american bw for dating american bm.
Really? I've never heard that. I have a whole side of my family that are latin/spanish speaking (Honduras), and they haven't caught any flak from american bw for dating american bm.
I'm speaking of the participants in this BW IR circle:
http://bfinterracialmarriage.blogspot.com/2006/08/baltimore-to-brazil.html
http://dateawhiteguy.blogspot.com/2007/06/black-man-writes-in-over-latina-wins.html
http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/weathersbee913?view=Forum
Troll,
You half read two of those post which were about bm seeking PROSTITUTES in Brazil, based on an Essence article. No one said they weren't black.
The issue is not whether they're black, it's about bm and their preference for a phenotype which often excludes the black women around them.
Now personally I think every one's entitled to their taste. But for some bm it's not enough that they have their taste. They have to denigrate bw that don't fit the mold. There's alot of hurt going on.
And we're here to say to women that have the phenotype that some bm despise and ridicule, you're beautiful and other men will appreciate you as you are.
So troll if you want to chase Brazilian prostitutes or anything else that's your business.
Let bw get on with ours.
What I found especially insulting and condescending was the repeated statement that these were only my "perceptions."
No sh*t these are my perceptions and observations on my experiences on the world around me! I am entitled to them and I am not obligated to be PC and clean things up so that they don't offend.
I haven't ever said that any of my opinions or observations were fact and applied to all people. If my opinions and perceptions offend you then stop reading and move on to another blog.
The point is that in this situation, he was specifically referring to Brazilian women as 'black', which most of them are. Yet when black men actively seek out these very same black Brazilian women, they are accused of seeking out non-black women.
So you're still pissed about what I said about that way back last year, huh? LOL!!
I accuse DBRbm of DISCRIMINATING against darker skinned more West African looking sistas with broader features. That's my point. I don't know about anybody else, but that's usually what I HIGHLIGHT because I get tired of DBRbm men glorifying light and white skinned women for no other reason than their skin shade and euro features!!
Sistas, this issue MUST be kept on the front burner because this is skin shade or racial discrimination!!
I was tutoring an 11-year old dark-skinned girl on Saturday who was in such PAIN because she gets called "ugly" and "awful looking" by the black boys at her school--CONSTANTLY. She was writing about it and tears dripped on the paper. How is this child supposed to grow up with good self-esteem? I felt so helpless.
Yet DBRbm are constantly trying to justify why they prefer light, bright, damn near white and white women. Yet they have the nerve to PRETEND to be mad at de evil wm!! LOL!! What a crock!
And sistas, we must keep in mind that it's not the lighter, mixed, or white woman's fault!! They can't help it if DBRbm will eat their crap.
Many of the Brazilian "black" women that I read about AA men salivating over were very "mixed" looking or barely tan euro women--you know, the Halle, Alica Keyes, Mariah types and lighter. Some of these AA men were actually QUOTED saying this. They acted like they had died and gone to heaven as they talked about how much access they had to light-skinned and euro-looking "black" Brazilian "beauties". They certainly didn't describe women who look like Serena Williams or Oluchi in any of the articles I read. Also, it was so clear that they were buying sex from these Brazilian women. This was out and out exploitation of these "black" women. There was no other relationship but a sex for money one. The articles made it clear that these women couldn't even speak any English, except to say, "we love black american men." LOL!!
And the "brothas" were talking about how these women were willing to do all kinds of sex!! As if--As if a man needs to fly to Brazil to PAY for "all kinds of sex." One Brazilian sex worker talked about how foreign black, white, and other men pay the really young Brazilian girls there on the beach for sex without condom usage and these poor girls are happy to make the money. (smh)
I don't compare Gerry Butler who dates a "mixed" or euro-looking woman with a typical AA man who flies to Brazil to pay for sex with mixed or euro-looking women BECAUSE I would expect a euro man like Gerry Butler to love and adore a euro-looking woman because his mother is euro. LOL! The last time I checked, the mothers, sistas, grandmas, etc. of most AA men did not look mixed or euro!!
On the other hand, Gerry Butler's expression of love for Brazilian women is embraced as him expressing love for black women. Why the double standard?
According to the 1-drop rule, these women are considered "black," but Gerry Butler ALSO adores and dates black-skinned, broader featured or more stereotypically African featured "black" women which is something that many Negro AA men don't do--if and when they have a choice.
You can say it ain't so, but black women know what they see.
It reminds me of how you post pics of Rosario Dawson with her white boyfriend and herald that as a bw/wm relationship, yet if she was with an African American man, he would be another black guy hooking up with a Latina.
I absolutely wouldn't have any issue with an AA man dating mixed or euro looking women IF he ALSO showed that he adores and proudly dates/marries black women who look like Oluchi, Serena, and the types of darker African-featured women that Gerry Butler dates.
So the BIG difference between a Gerry Butler and a typical wm--like my husband who loves my beauty and in general appreciates the beauty of black women and a typical DBRbm is that my white husband ALSO thinks that his mother and women who look like her are beautiful and desirable, whereas many DBRbm obviously don't consider women who look like their mothers to be beautiful and desirable.
Zabeth said...
What I found especially insulting and condescending was the repeated statement that these were only my "perceptions."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Our experiences and voices are consistently discounted and ignored both in the bc and society in general. Because bw aren't supposed to form opinions and have feelings of their own. We're just suppose to tow the party line. (ie BM are victims of the "system".) In the meantime:
Black Women are not supposed to talk about color struck bm.
Black women are not supposed to talk about irresponsible babydaddies.
Black Women are not supposed to talk about being attracted to wm.
Black Women are not supposed to talk about being used or abused in the bc.
As long as we allow fear and DBRBM to control the discourse we will remain stuck in negative patterns.
I guess the problem is that bw have brains and are willing to express themselves as boldly as bm do.
Keep talking ladies:)
In light of the planned B & N meetups, and just for general information, I'd be very interested to know the age group of people on this and other IR blogs. Are most of us in our 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc.?
As long as we allow fear and DBRBM to control the discourse we will remain stuck in negative patterns.
--------------------------------
EXACTLY, its gotten to a point where were made to feel guilty about talking about such things. Its like its ok for black men to degrade black women over and over again however its not ok in the reverse especially when its starting to get more attention.
"I have a sister just like the ones in Waiting to Exhale who will chase after an obviously gay BM, the married black man who is happened, all true, but she refuses to give up on the black man, even though she has been beaten, emotionally abused, tagged along, and financially swindled (each by a different man over the years). WTF?!?!"
"re: Kemicutie's sister. Some times I think the low self esteem that results from the initial DBR bm relationship serves as the fuel that keeps the bw going back to such things.
They feel they don't deserve better."
I know many bw like your sister Kemi. I don't agree with the second quote however. I don't think BW feel as if they don't deserve any better. It's the fact that we as BW have been putting up with the DBRBM soo long and their nonsense soo long, that many of us are use to this type of behavior in a relationship and honestly don't know of anything different. Some BW think this kind of shit is normal and par for the course. Some sister's have been abused for so long that if a great guy did come around they wouldn't know how to handle it. We are so use to nonsense now that if a normal guy responsible non abusive guy came around we might not be able to handle it. We don't live for the drama but we are use to it. How sad is that?? The Color Purple and Tina
staying with Ike's sorry ass for over 20 years even while he beat and raped her and she was stronger than his ass are two prime examples!!
'Even now, in many bookstores our books are segregated from other genre fiction, into a special 'African-American' section.
I can't stand this practise of placing books by black authors in a "special" section. Sometimes I've seen books that have no commentary on race or a racial component in these sections just because the author is black."
When I was an English ed. major in college (in New York City mind you), all the white author classes (Shakespeare, Chaucer) were in the nice main heated/ac buildings while the Afro-American reading studies classes were located in outer-Mongolia alllllll the way across campus, on the top floors, in the back of the buildings, in crappy rooms with not enough seats and terrible professors.
The AA classes had the most lazy half-assed teachers around (HOW CAN A PROFESSOR NOT SHOW UP TO THE FINAL?!?!), while the Shakespeare classes would have the good, sometimes even ivy-league educated professors conducting them. So sad. :(
Mind you this was a city college ( a well-known one with famous alumni and a history of having people go on to ivy-league grad schools and come back to teach after going to IV schools)and yet the snobbery was/is insane, especially with the older white professors who graduated from IV schools and sometimes taught at both my school/IV schools. How dare you ask Professor SO and so who is the undergrad dean for your school and Columbia to teach some AA class in the outer-Mongolia building. Sad.
I read Terry McMillan, because she was like a black Jackie Collins type of writer. If I wanted serious thought provoking stuff I read Tony Morrison. I got fed up with Terry M. because it was irritating to read about such stupid people.
I give her credit for launching the wave of black authors we have today: the good, the bad, and the ghetto dramas.
I'll gently defend the segregation of black authors. It used to be hard to know if an author is black in the general fiction section, and my intent was to buy their books.
Today, they are not that hard to find.
It's the fact that we as BW have been putting up with the DBRBM soo long and their nonsense soo long, that many of us are use to this type of behavior in a relationship and honestly don't know of anything different.
I think that BW find such behavior appealing and exciting.
@ Sandra
20s and in Southern California area
I absolutely wouldn't have any issue with an AA man dating mixed or euro looking women IF he ALSO showed that he adores and proudly dates/marries black women who look like Oluchi, Serena, and the types of darker African-featured women that Gerry Butler dates.
Uhm, most black men date and marry black women who look exactly like that.
You do realize that Bria Miles is one of the most desired women among black men. Same for Ki Toy, Megan Goode and Nona Gaye.
With regard to the afro-american studies classes not being taught by the "best" professors comment by Lisa: professors don't teach what they don't study, and tenured professors (more likely the better ones) are usually older, and choose the courses they teach. No tenured professor is going to take on a course that entails extra work (like learning the material before teaching it). So, unless they studied it they probably won't take on the course. And most older professors would not have focussed on black literature. Moreover, african-american literature is much more of a sub-genre of literature than English authors, or what have you. So you're not going to find many professors who focussed on this in their graduate studies. So, the choice of the professors to teach these courses comes down to a small segment of Phd-holding people, probably adjunct. There's less motivation for an adjunct to be great at his job - no tenure possibilities. Given that, you won't get the pick of the litter. Also, you're probably talking about CCNY - not the best institution (anymore).
You do realize that Bria Miles is one of the most desired women among black men. Same for Ki Toy, Megan Goode and Nona Gaye.
-----------------------------
Oh really now, hmm. Really because Black Men magazine voted Vida G. has the sexiest woman of the year while KING mag put Kim Ho-dashian on the cover of their mag recently. So, It seems like your brothers (majority u claim?) dont agree with you. Perhaps you should start your own mag and show what brothers truly want huh?
So to answer your question BW do not realize that Bria Miles is one of the most desired. BW realize the opposite and know it to be true based on experience and media images.
Uhm, most black men date and marry black women who look exactly like that.
-------------------------------
No they dont. They havent for a LOOOONG time. It seems like centuries ago really.
"Also, you're probably talking about CCNY - not the best institution (anymore)."
CCNY is 12 colleges in one across NYC. Some are awesome and some I wouldn't let my dog go to LOL! The good ones are in Manhattan (of course) and Brooklyn. The crappy ones are in the Bronx.
Oops I mean CCNY is part of CUNY which has the 12 colleges across NYC.
Baruch, Hunter, Brooklyn, and John Jay Criminal Justice are he best colleges. Brooklyn however rose even more in the ranks with the 2005 Rhodes Scholar. I was suppose to go away to a big fancy college but things fell through at the last minute and I was able to go to a CUNY college and haven't regretted it since. Do not like the lack of diversity though. You would think a college in the middle of Brooklyn
would have more non-white people!! My BW friend goes there as well and she was shocked at the lack of diversity (and racism).
The Jews have that school on LOCK lol!! They even have there own special building and free trips! I WANNA FREE TRIP TOO!!
(One time I tried to say I was Jewish to get the free trip.......they didn't believe me lol.)
Jennifer..
I agree with what you had to say about this. I don't know where my sister gets this from. We were both raised in a middle-class, two-parent household. My father is Nigerian and loves my mother to death. There was no drama in our house between my parents. My father respects my mother and she does the same for him. Also, my father's family had a fit when he said he was going to marry my mother who is Black American. They threatened to take away his inheritance and all of that and he told them to keep the money and land. My parents raised me and the rest of us to believe that you're just lucky to get nice, what to speak of a specific ethnic group. We were raised to not worry about that sort of thing and that the right person can come in any package. I think it may have more to do with my sister trying so hard to fit in with her Black American friends and they may have had a very interesting influence on her. She left the house at age 18. The thing is that she used to date all sorts of guys. Like one of her boyfriends was Pakistani, one was half Greek/Black, another was half Koren/Black, and so on. I don't get what happened to her and it isn't my job to figure it out. I just hope that one day she wakes up from her mental slumber and just opens herself up to nice whatever package that comes in.
Jennifer - I assumed CCNY, sorry. That school used to be very high quality but they went to open admissions, and I too wouldn't send my dog there. I don't want to go all off topic on this blog, but, it really doesn't matter not going to a "big fancy college." You've not regretted Brooklyn and you shouldn't, especially if your goal is to be a teacher (which from your profile I assume it is). Having that name college isn't worth much in secondary/primary education. Hell, I've been told that, in order to advance (for example to work in the district office), one needs a doctorate, but - and this is my point - an online degree doctorate will suffice. So better you keep yourself out of debt and stay in Brooklyn. If my assumption about your career path is incorrect, ignore all I said. Sorry to get all off topic here, Zabeth's Corner.
(One time I tried to say I was Jewish to get the free trip.......they didn't believe me lol.)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
LOL.
Honey that's why God made BSUs. When I was in undergrad we took trips too. So form your own if there isn't one, and if the BSU you have sucks, reform it.
Uhm, most black men date and marry black women who look exactly like that.
You do realize that Bria Miles is one of the most desired women among black men. Same for Ki Toy, Megan Goode and Nona Gaye.
I went and pulled up pics of these women, just to do a double check. Are you arguing that Nona Gaye and Meagan Goode are darker skinned, broad featured black women? LOL!! And I could be wrong, but I believe that Ki Toy and Bria Miles are famous for their extreme butt dimensions, judging from some of the raw comments made about them. If we're going to focus only on rump sizes, black women worldwide would win EVERY female beauty contest. As a matter of face, West African women would totally win.
Most AA men WHO HAVE A CHOICE (weaalthy, influential, resource-rich ones, more education, etc. ) tend to choose lighter, brighter, whiter women with more euro phenotypes as mates. This is just a fact, and if some of y'all don't know this, then that's on you.
Are you arguing that Nona Gaye and Meagan Goode are darker skinned, broad featured black women?
Both are brown skinned, non-light skinned women with clearly black features and naturally "nappy" hair. Same for Kellita Smith, Gabriel Union, and Angela Bassett.
And I could be wrong, but I believe that Ki Toy and Bria Miles are famous for their extreme butt dimensions, judging from some of the raw comments made about them.
Practically every female appearing in those books have the same butt dimensions. They stand out for other reasons. Plus, if you believe this, then why complain about Vida since she is popular for similar butt dimensions.
Most AA men WHO HAVE A CHOICE (weaalthy, influential, resource-rich ones, more education, etc. ) tend to choose lighter, brighter, whiter women with more euro phenotypes as mates.
You could same the same about black women (Oprah, Diana Ross, Whoopi, Star Jones, Vanessa Williams, Jada Pinkett, Donna Joyner).
No they dont. They havent for a LOOOONG time. It seems like centuries ago really.
Yes they do.
Oh really now, hmm. Really because Black Men magazine voted Vida G. has the sexiest woman of the year while KING mag put Kim Ho-dashian on the cover of their mag recently.
Bria was on the cover of KING in June of 2006 and on the cover of Black Men in January of this year.
Melyssa Ford was voted sexiest woman of the year in one year as has other black women in different years. And don't be surprised if there is a significant number of white male readers of that magazine (maybe those same white guys who make up 60-70% if the hip hop audience).
^^^^The 60-70% stat claiming that the majority of hip hop listeners are white is not entirely true. Do you really to 60-70% white faces at your average hip hop show?
Nielsen Soundscan, the company that tracks record sales, hasn't ever monitored or taken statistics on the race or ethnicity of any consumer who purchased music. So in actuality there is no evidence that 60+ percent of hip hop is purchased by White consumers in suburbia.
http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB111521814339424546.html
Most AA men WHO HAVE A CHOICE (weaalthy, influential, resource-rich ones, more education, etc. ) tend to choose lighter, brighter, whiter women with more euro phenotypes as mates. This is just a fact, and if some of y'all don't know this, then that's on you.
-------------------------------
AMEN AMEN AMEN AMEN, now why is that I wonder???
Bria was on the cover of KING in June of 2006 and on the cover of Black Men in January of this year.
-------------------------------
Then why was she not voted the sexiest instead a Vida G. type???
Do you have that answer, oh i think you know but perhaps denialibity is bliss.
Please ignore the previous anonymous TROLL, this is the same anomymous troll that follows the BW IR blogs. He has nothing better to do I suppose. Although seeing how much he is on here and other BW IR blogs I think he is really SCAAAARED. LOL
Zabeth, I'm in my 40's and live in Houston, Texas.
It just dawned on me I have to turn off safe search to find pictures of these women. hummm sad.
Nielsen Soundscan, the company that tracks record sales, hasn't ever monitored or taken statistics on the race or ethnicity of any consumer who purchased music.
MRI researchers supported the 60-75% white audience according to that article.
Then why was she not voted the sexiest instead a Vida G. type???
Do you have that answer, oh i think you know but perhaps denialibity is bliss.
Buffy Carruth won XXL Magazine's Eye Candy of the Year award. She's dark.
Both are brown skinned, non-light skinned women with clearly black features and naturally "nappy" hair. Same for Kellita Smith, Gabriel Union, and Angela Bassett.
These sistas are beautiful, but so are many other sistas with less selected-out features. These women clearly have features, complexions, etc. that I've heard men say are so-called "easy on the eye" which means they're less stereotypically West African features and complexions. However, many AA women DO look stereotypically West African and this thus spells REJECTION.
Definitely some bm would say that Meagan Goode and Nona Gaye are light brown enough to be considered light skinned or have a more "mixed" look. Some "mixed" or biracial women DO have nappy hair.
Still, you do this tap dance!! No black woman or girl who has been around longer than a minute is fooled by your disingenuous argument. Apparently, bm are selecting out certain bw, and though you can deny it forever and ever, bw KNOW why these women are being selected.
And yes, many more bw are increasingly finding loving, loveable, suitable, and compatible white and other non-bm for marriage. It's about time!!
After this, I'm outta here. I just wanted to once again highlight the fact that wealthy, influential bm, overwhelmingly, DISCRIMINATE against bw who look like Oluchi for relationships and marriage. Everyone KNOWS that she is not the type that most prominent AA men these days CHOOSE (when they have a choice) to lie around their swimming pool.
STOP ALLOWING TROLLS TO HI-JACK OUR DISCUSSIONS!!!
The features of Meagan Goode and Nona Gaye are probably the most common features of AA women. So black men find the typical looking AA woman attractive. And it is quite unintelligent to refer to someone's personal preference with regard to what they are physically attracted to as discrimination.
And the only thing the average black man would find unattractive about Oluchi is the fact that she is skinny.
STOP ALLOWING TROLLS TO HI-JACK OUR DISCUSSIONS!!!
Grow up.
Who gives a hoot who black men choose to date or find attractive, when black women are considering and pursuing options that don't require being limited to them only?
It's about women making choices that are right for them, considering their interests and needs first and foremost, AND NOT GIVING A HOOT ABOUT WHAT BLACK MEN WANT.
That is the underlying message of the discussion Zabeth overheard: black women focusing too much on what black men want and need, but not thinking about what they want and need, and failing to realize that they don't have to be limited to black men's needs, interests and desires.
"AND NOT GIVING A HOOT ABOUT WHAT BLACK MEN WANT"
Can we get this on a t-shirt? I'll take a couple. Can we please stop talking about whatever the hell it is that black men want or don't want? Can we not have one space on the entire effing internet where black women are free to discuss our wants, desires and needs? That is all. Thank you.
would it be safe to say that those who 'feed the trolls' are like backhanded enablers? or like unknowing enablers?
Miriam: would it be safe to say that those who 'feed the trolls' are like backhanded enablers? or like unknowing enablers?
My reply:
Enabling? I am not sure.
But what does seem to be the case is that too many women who are interested in exploring options like IR dating are justifying their decisions (unnecessarily so) based upon what bm do or are not doing: they are "dbr," they are "marrying white women," so I need to do something different.
Once they go there, others respond in trying to persuade them that their reasons are not justified, bm are not "dbr," they are not "marrying white," they do find average bw attractive, etc...
How much more empowering would it be for bw considering options like IR dating to being saying:
1.Regardless of what happened in the past, regardless of experiences with bm, or regardless of the interests and needs of bm, I want to do something different now, and I don't have to justify it.
2. In considering these options, I want to communicate with other bw about their experiences in IR dating and marriage.
PVW,
I hear it. Its much much better not to state one's reason for doing something unless one is trying to open oneself for arguments.
Hmmm, now i'm just thinking out loud here. If we remove the reasoning why, then it makes it difficult to encourage girls to not settle for DBR, no?
I don't think it makes it difficult at all. The women coming here aren't stupid, they don't need to be told what their experiences are. If they're here, they're already interested in IR, but if we're going around in circles with a bunch of fucktards you take the focus off what's important. Namely US! We're dating/mating IR because it goddamn well pleases us to do so. Who black men roll with is their business, and who we roll with is ours. Period. It's insulting to all parties to keep talking about them. THEY. ARE. IRRELEVANT.
Exactly, Roslyn!
As the conversation Zabeth overheard indicates, too many women harp on the personal dating choices of complete strangers, which does not do anything for their own self-empowerment. It leaves them feeling like victims, when they are not!
It only leaves them in conversations with those who would keep their focus where it doesn't belong, on the antics, experiences and statistics on complete strangers, the bm they are so obsessed with.
Focus not on the negative language that gets one stuck in the past of "victimhood" and other people's stuff, but on the positives of where bw who are considering their options are going: they are realizing that good men come in all backgrounds, and they are not limited in their dating options.
That is where some of the most productive conversations on these blogs have been, among women who are not stuck on "victim mode" and debates that don't resolve anything. They are moving on, they have come into their own power and are looking out for their own futures.
Miriam:
Hmmm, now i'm just thinking out loud here. If we remove the reasoning why, then it makes it difficult to encourage girls to not settle for DBR, no?
My reply:
The reasoning is out there, on these blogs and elsewhere, plenty of information to give to young girls not to settle for DBR men, that there is not need her to harp about it all the time!
"MRI researchers supported the 60-75% white audience according to that article."
They supported that hip hop is mainstream- and it is, no one would argue that. However, they could not pin point the origin of the statistic that 60-70% of hip hop fans are white. Nor could they come up with a reasonable measure for that stat. That's problematic for me. Just because something is mainstream doesn't mean it's skewed one way.
ENOUGH WITH THE DISCUSSION OF HIP HOP. IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC AT HAND. I will delete all subsequent discussions of hip hop.
This is why we must always steer the direction to what BLACK WOMEN needs/wants/desires are. The trolls are trying hard but we muct always steer it back.
"The reasoning is out there, on these blogs and elsewhere, plenty of information to give to young girls not to settle for DBR men, that there is not need her to harp about it all the time!"
*********************************
I hope your right, though I know the info is out there but am unsure of how much young black girls are seeing it. So I think it bears repeating over and over again, till it becomes mainstreet/hood word that everybody uses and knows.
I also think theres somewhat of a panick on the part of older black women. They perhaps fear young black women may make their mistakes so theres perhaps this rush of warning. They have a right to fear this until a change is really done. Theres not a huge change that we can readily see just yet, change takes time ofcourse. Blogging is still fairly recent.
Black women are succeding in every department of career, education, job ect but are failing in the relationship dept. The point is we must not let our GAURD down or underestimate the situation to think they everything is ok, now our work is done.
RoslynHolcomb....."fucktards" is the funniest word I think I've ever heard!!! You are hilarious!
All of you are so right, BW should stop trying to make excuses for wanting more out of life. I have a good job, education, decent looks and damn...but I am single, because that is the one area I alone have failed to cultivate (well, I and the BC who are somewhat judgemental of BW who date out). My family knows my preference though and they are supportive so far.
I don't know about you ladies, but am I the only one who hates to hear BW say, "Well, I date IR, not that I don't love me some Brothas..." -- why does this need to be qualified? What do we owe BM? Have an obligation to self and family WHEN they have your best interest in mind.
Date good, kind, successful, loving men who have the tools for building a fruitful life for themselves first! These are the types of men I feel we have not been taught to go for probably because we feel we did not deserve such, regardless of what package this man comes in.
I will not apologize for my preference and at the same time, I won't denigrate BM...sadly, that same sentiment is not paid to us.
I meant to say "that same courtesy is not paid to us."
Date good, kind, successful, loving men who have the tools for building a fruitful life for themselves first! These are the types of men I feel we have not been taught to go for probably because we feel we did not deserve such, regardless of what package this man comes in.
-----------------------------
AMEN AMEN AMEN
BW have been taught to have/take less than because thats as much as we deserve.
I CONFESS.
I am a serial troll feeder addicted to troll feeding. Trolls can be cute.
http://www.j-taubert.de/event_2003/Troll.jpg
But after reading this blog I fear I may be causing harm. I have to say I only do it to counter false information which I believe many people may actually believe.
But no matter. I have decided to check myself into Troll Feeders Anonymous. I have decided I will try each day not to feed the trolls, and focus on the positive, and not the lies.
And so I begin. (hope this lasts more than one day).
Roslyn!!! You're hysterical!!! I would love to meet you in person. Can't wait to read your book.
Things We Lost in the Fire looks it's going to be a tight movie. Thanks for the link Zabeth.
Troll Feeders Anonymous
LOL
To "Let Love Rule"...I am supporting you 100% in your recovery from Troll feeding. I myself relapsed just the other day, and on this blog site. LOL!
You may not be able to quit "cold turkey", so just do little by little until it becomes second nature to ignore the bastardos!!!LOL.
Thanks Meli,
I need all the support I can get. I've made this promise before but relasped too. But this time I think I can make it (at least for a week).
Back to positive thinking -
I will ignore the trolls. I will not feed them. And they will starve and wither away.I will ignore the trolls. I will not feed them. And they will starve and wither away...
I just wanted to thank all of you women here as well as Classical One's blog, cause it has put a bounce in my walk since I started reading these in August '07. I've been down on myself, for a while now, cause BM have put me down repeatedly, dating and guys on the street.
I'm so happy to read all these intelligent writings on these blogs(minus the trolls). Keep it up, I love it.
Now I need to re-watch "WTE", cause I saw it years ago.
am I the only one who hates to hear BW say, "Well, I date IR, not that I don't love me some Brothas..." -- why does this need to be qualified? What do we owe BM? Have an obligation to self and family WHEN they have your best interest in mind.
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No you're not the only one!! It makes it seem as though the non-black men we're with are our second choices. I hope there arent too many white guys reading these IR blogs because thats the conclusion that they will come to if they are reading them.... sad
Zabeth,
I love the new commentary on the home page of the blog: darn right, it's your opinion/perspective, etc.
I thought about that too after the troll had the nerve to question you, and I wrote about it recently on my blog:
http://episcopalienne.blogspot.com
I'm relatively new to the circle of pro-BW/WM/IR blogs and have been lurking and reading for a few weeks. These discussions are exactly what's needed for de-programming and affirmation of the end of slavery for Black women.
I'd like to say a few things based on the many parts of this discussion:
1. WTE is a dated movie and reflects the Zeitgeist of the early 1990s. It would be like expecting "Something New" to have come out in 1982, or "Corrina, Corrina" to have come out in 1960. The movie is what it is, a big-screen redux of the experiencies of the 1990s wave of succesful Black women who were coming into their own.
2. This ish ain't new at all - there have ALWAYS been IR relationships between BW and WM, and yes, they were not always based on rape, exploitation (placage), or adultery. The trend in LEGITIMACY is new, not the trend in ATTRACTION. If so, most of us wouldn't be here and many Black mamas wouldn't have warned their daughters to mistrust the intentions of White men. Have your brothers take an autosomal DNA test and see where the Y-chromosome in your family comes from. Many times, it comes from Europe, which is proof that someone along the way found a Black woman attractive enough to procreate with. Explore your family tree, like I did. I found out that my great-great-grandmother married a French man FOB (fresh off the boat) and raised a gaggle of kids. Happily, within their community, with no slavemaster/slave mistress or "sideline ho" drama. It opened my eyes further to how entrenched these self-defeating perceptions are within our culture.
3. Don't believe the hype, even when it's on the cover of King magazine. The other poster who claimed that women who look like Oluchi and Megan Goode find romantic partners and husbands day in and day out is RIGHT, based on marriage rates and most likely marriage partners of Black men. Media images are idealized, and sometimes they are fantasies. Perhaps many Black men IDEALIZE the beauty of lightskinned and White female beauty, but that doesn't mean that dark women go without. Think about what you're saying, and use this analogy: Are there women bigger than a size 4 who date, get married and have kids? Statistically, the average American woman is a 14, so YES. Would you ever come to that conclusion by watching tv, reading men's magazines, or listening to men talk about the actresses and porn stars they find attractive? Hell no! And so what if you recall the reality: Men don't tend to marry actresses and porn stars, but real women. Unless there are no single White and lightskinned women, and EVERY darkskinned Black woman is single and unwanted, people need to stop repeating this negative mantra that BM "only want light, bright and damned near White" like it is the truth. And personally I would like to have more conversations about what the men I am attracted to and want to attract see in women like me, which is why I am hear. If I want to know what men like Wesley Snipes think I can read Essence. If I want to know what real Black men think about real Black women, I ask my dad, brothers and friends.
4 I also resent the implication that non-attractive White women and non-attractive lightskinned women trump the devastating beauty many darkskinned women possess. Sistas need to realize how beautiful they are and how clear that beauty is to non-Black people when it appears. I have natural "African" hair, dark skin, brown eyes and somewhat broad features. Thanks to my genes and fashion sense, a rainbow coalition of people seem to like what they see. No, I'm not just deluding myself nor am I a Halle lookalike trying to "pass" online. White people are not aliens for goodness sakes! We are all still one species and we are wired to see beauty wherever it resides. So no, I too believe that Zabeth's overheard conversation took place because I have been privy to them myself. Many White women are not hostile or threatened by Black women. Any DBRW (Damaged Beyond Repair Woman) is going to start screeching and gulping the Hatorade at the prospect of a man shortage. These women come in every shade, and yes, many White women are DBRWW when it comes to the Asian women or Black women who are "competition," and they need to have a self-esteem defense strategy in place. The DBRBW who gets incensed to see a BM with a WW has similar issues. Let's take race out of that one and see the behavior/reaction for what it is. let's not put WW on the very pedestal that we accuse society of doing by neglecting to see their insecurities and issues.
5. What I'm seeking from these conversations is how to effectively get the word out to openminded non-Black men that there are open-minded Black women who are looking for them and may even prefer them. I can't help anyone else...the DBR people of the world; the racists of any stripe; the naysayers; the insecure. So, to that point, I think we need to develop nonverbal signals to let these men/women know that it is okay to "engage" when you see someone who is attractive to you without fear of rejection along racial lines (lol rejection for other reasons might happen though!). I want the cute White guy that I see giving me the eye across the bar to know that I won't reject him because of his color and vice versa. How do we make THAT happen? Secret handshake? Anonymous non-racial symbol (like a Black/White yin-yang symbol? Hmmm). I guess a big part of this is educating non-Black men in some way. I have heard many times from White male co-workers that I had to get to know well enough (and they still needed to have a few drinks in 'em) that they just believe that Black women aren't interested in non-Black men and just don't even go there. It's a shame that natural attraction is being restricted. After all, we are not trying to change anyone's preferences, but we are trying to discover which non-Black men may be attracted to or prefer Black women.
That's probably enough venting! LOL
I like the idea of a black/white ying-yang symbol. One of my Italian friends gave me a broach that looked like two puzzle pieces fitting together, one was black and one was white. That's another idea.
One may need to be careful with symbols that are too "obvious" relating to one's openness to IR relationships. Such a symbol could also open the wearer up to some very unwanted harrassment.
Gerard Butler only dates light skin black women ... show me one pic of him dating a dark skin black women ... what, you don't think a white man can be color struck?
Could you imagine what would happen to the sensibilities of the women on this board if Gerard Butler turned out to be gay and married a black man ... lol
Personally I think the symbols and whatnot are absurd, but if y'all want to wear them, perhaps I should point out the obvious. If you're concerned about being harassed for wearing an 'obvious' symbol, then imagine what it'll be like when you're 'wearing' your partner of another race. Either you're ready for prime time or you're not. If you're really ready, you won't need a symbol. And should you choose to wear one you might as well get over your fear of harassment now. It only gets worse.
"Gerard Butler only dates light skin black women ... show me one pic of him dating a dark skin black women ... what, you don't think a white man can be color struck?"
Wrong again troll:
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc3/pjay131/?action=view¤t=14234_large1-1.jpg
Trinity said...
I'm relatively new to the circle of pro-BW/WM/IR blogs and have been lurking and reading for a few weeks. These discussions are exactly what's needed for de-programming and affirmation of the end of slavery for Black women.
I'd like to say a few things based on the many parts of this discussion:
1. WTE is a dated movie and reflects the Zeitgeist of the early 1990s. It would be like expecting "Something New" to have come out in 1982, or "Corrina, Corrina" to have come out in 1960. The movie is what it is, a big-screen redux of the experiencies of the 1990s wave of succesful Black women who were coming into their own.
2. This ish ain't new at all - there have ALWAYS been IR relationships between BW and WM, and yes, they were not always based on rape, exploitation (placage), or adultery. The trend in LEGITIMACY is new, not the trend in ATTRACTION. If so, most of us wouldn't be here and many Black mamas wouldn't have warned their daughters to mistrust the intentions of White men. Have your brothers take an autosomal DNA test and see where the Y-chromosome in your family comes from. Many times, it comes from Europe, which is proof that someone along the way found a Black woman attractive enough to procreate with. Explore your family tree, like I did. I found out that my great-great-grandmother married a French man FOB (fresh off the boat) and raised a gaggle of kids. Happily, within their community, with no slavemaster/slave mistress or "sideline ho" drama. It opened my eyes further to how entrenched these self-defeating perceptions are within our culture.
3. Don't believe the hype, even when it's on the cover of King magazine. The other poster who claimed that women who look like Oluchi and Megan Goode find romantic partners and husbands day in and day out is RIGHT, based on marriage rates and most likely marriage partners of Black men. Media images are idealized, and sometimes they are fantasies. Perhaps many Black men IDEALIZE the beauty of lightskinned and White female beauty, but that doesn't mean that dark women go without. Think about what you're saying, and use this analogy: Are there women bigger than a size 4 who date, get married and have kids? Statistically, the average American woman is a 14, so YES. Would you ever come to that conclusion by watching tv, reading men's magazines, or listening to men talk about the actresses and porn stars they find attractive? Hell no! And so what if you recall the reality: Men don't tend to marry actresses and porn stars, but real women. Unless there are no single White and lightskinned women, and EVERY darkskinned Black woman is single and unwanted, people need to stop repeating this negative mantra that BM "only want light, bright and damned near White" like it is the truth. And personally I would like to have more conversations about what the men I am attracted to and want to attract see in women like me, which is why I am hear. If I want to know what men like Wesley Snipes think I can read Essence. If I want to know what real Black men think about real Black women, I ask my dad, brothers and friends.
4 I also resent the implication that non-attractive White women and non-attractive lightskinned women trump the devastating beauty many darkskinned women possess. Sistas need to realize how beautiful they are and how clear that beauty is to non-Black people when it appears. I have natural "African" hair, dark skin, brown eyes and somewhat broad features. Thanks to my genes and fashion sense, a rainbow coalition of people seem to like what they see. No, I'm not just deluding myself nor am I a Halle lookalike trying to "pass" online. White people are not aliens for goodness sakes! We are all still one species and we are wired to see beauty wherever it resides. So no, I too believe that Zabeth's overheard conversation took place because I have been privy to them myself. Many White women are not hostile or threatened by Black women. Any DBRW (Damaged Beyond Repair Woman) is going to start screeching and gulping the Hatorade at the prospect of a man shortage. These women come in every shade, and yes, many White women are DBRWW when it comes to the Asian women or Black women who are "competition," and they need to have a self-esteem defense strategy in place. The DBRBW who gets incensed to see a BM with a WW has similar issues. Let's take race out of that one and see the behavior/reaction for what it is. let's not put WW on the very pedestal that we accuse society of doing by neglecting to see their insecurities and issues.
5. What I'm seeking from these conversations is how to effectively get the word out to openminded non-Black men that there are open-minded Black women who are looking for them and may even prefer them. I can't help anyone else...the DBR people of the world; the racists of any stripe; the naysayers; the insecure. So, to that point, I think we need to develop nonverbal signals to let these men/women know that it is okay to "engage" when you see someone who is attractive to you without fear of rejection along racial lines (lol rejection for other reasons might happen though!). I want the cute White guy that I see giving me the eye across the bar to know that I won't reject him because of his color and vice versa. How do we make THAT happen? Secret handshake? Anonymous non-racial symbol (like a Black/White yin-yang symbol? Hmmm). I guess a big part of this is educating non-Black men in some way. I have heard many times from White male co-workers that I had to get to know well enough (and they still needed to have a few drinks in 'em) that they just believe that Black women aren't interested in non-Black men and just don't even go there. It's a shame that natural attraction is being restricted. After all, we are not trying to change anyone's preferences, but we are trying to discover which non-Black men may be attracted to or prefer Black women.
That's probably enough venting! LOL
-------------------------------------------------
Everything you said was right on point!!!!
re:getting the idea out...
ideas:seeing as how bw are doing best in blogging and their own media...
(however, I notice people don't visit other blogs very often. I think perhaps visiting blogs and frequent commenting on blogs of previously researched, open-minded fellows -not necessarily dating blogs but just regular nice people's blogs- will get this blog some attention -did that make sense?)
any musicians? Anyone want to make a sweet youtube on it? a song?
just some ideas to get the ball rolling.
Okay, a related conversation I heard today confused me... there's two white guys, one black guy, and me. White guy (whose girlfriend is Chinese) talks about how he thinks that it's racist -- in a joking manner -- that Asian women and Asian men both prefer whites. Black guy says that black women are mad that black men are going after with white women, and at this point, I interject and say that "I'm not mad, I don't care."
White guys both say that "There's a reason for that." Black guy goes on to say that Latino men like black women. White guy then says how he likes white women and wants someone as pale as he is. White guy and black guy jokingly accuse him of being racist. What should I make of this whole exchange?
Miriam and Aimee: I would be interested in doing some cross-pollination commenting on other related websites. I think Aimee mentioned that there were about 20 other IR sites. It might be helpful to provide the blog address or links to these sites. Can either of you help with that? Thanks.
Sandra,
I would volunteer and say even a non IR dating blog. More like just various guys you've found to be nice and open minded based on what the topic is or what they wrote about.
Eventually he'll notice, his commentors will notice, etc. If you had a blog, they'd eventually take a look at your blog, see what its about , etc.
brb...
I don't think letting a white man know you are interested has to be any harder than letting a black man know.
I would try eye contact, smiling, maybe even winking. lol
-honeybunch
"I don't think letting a white man know you are interested has to be any harder than letting a black man know.
I would try eye contact, smiling, maybe even winking. lol"
Yes anon. Let's keep it like that: simple lol. Some people suggest some things in comments on blogs that I wouldn't do to attract any man: black, white, blue, green, or aquamarine LOL!
Their friendship sustains them, but in the end, they kind of are alone, aren't they? I wonder what the dialogue would be if one of the ladies said, "ever think of dating out and not waiting for these DBRs to get their act together?"
But you notice that Terry and others have books on bw in jacked up relationships. I think that's why I stopped reading them. I was a kid and new something just didn't seem right.
Beagle
I remember those movies and when I saw them I was a teenager and wondered why these women didn't think of dating a nice white guy? All I thought was that, "dang, that won't be me. I'll get a nice guy whatever the package he comes in and I won't be alone." Guess what? I'm not alone.
You know what come to think about it. Terry in the Soul Food series had the most jacked up relationships from Miles to Damon and the others she dated or married and yet she had this hot white guy she had more chemistry with and they kept her going with Damon.
Didn't Terry have the best chemistry with Charles Miller before going back with Damon?
regardless of media portrayals, in the real world the times they are a changin'. i get hit on daily by white men and my boyfriend is white. i just ran a search on craigslist in my city on the west coast out of curiosity after reading your blog post zabeth and there were 30 personals by white men seeking a serious, long-term relationship with a black woman. that may not seem like a lot, but i've only ever seen 4-10 at a time. most of them made it known that they are only interested in dating black ladies and they ranged in age from 26-52 based on what they indicated. interesting. interesting.
^^^^ That's definitely true. After you've done something once, the easier it is to replicate and, you'll become more aware and cognizant of certain things. After you've dated one WM, more will come around you. I've had WM tell me the same thing- after they dated one BW, they started to notice BW all over the place.
I guess some people are wondering why the heck black women aren't expanding their options either. If you beleive the statistics black women have a slim chance of getting married. Even finding an educated, working man that is without a criminal record. Why aren't we expanding our options? Why must we be "loyal" or maintain the black community, when stats on IR dating show that many black men aren't? It is really crazy that even other races of people ask the question, but yet blacks do not.
We should also note Terry McMillan, the author of "Waiting To Exhale" was on Oprah a couple of years back, it turns out her Black Prince was gay, and wanting spousal support and a green card. Black women should have saw the sign then to keep your options open and quit chasing men that aren't on your level.
"Is there anyone on here who is currently living in the South that is in an IR?"
I am in Texas, and have never had a problem dating IR here. You sometimes get looks, but no one has ever been bold to comment, except once, and my husband stopped that with a quickness.
Siditty, has it been difficult finding guys interested in IRs with BFs in TX?
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